BANG
MSS
2004/122
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BANG
University of California • Berkeley
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
Western Mining in the Twentieth Century Series
Guy Harris
A CAREER IN MINING CHEMICALS
With an introduction by
Douglas Fuerstenau
Interviews Conducted by
Fredric L. Quivik
in 2001
Copyright © 2003 by The Regents of the University of California
Since 1954 the Regional Oral History Office has been interviewing leading participants in or well-placed
witnesses to major events in the development of northern California, the West, and the nation. Oral history
is a method of collecting historical information through tape-recorded interviews between a narrator with
firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of
preserving substantive additions to the historical record. The tape recording is transcribed, lightly edited
for continuity and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewee. The corrected manuscript is indexed, bound
with photographs and illustrative materials, and placed in The Bancroft Library at the University of
California, Berkeley, and in other research collections for scholarly use. Because it is primary material,
oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken
account, offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is reflective, partisan, deeply
involved, and irreplaceable.
************************************
All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal agreement between The
Regents of the University of California and Guy Harris, dated March 21,
2001. The manuscript is thereby made available for research purposes.
All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are
reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of California,
Berkeley. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication
without the written permission of the Director of The Bancroft Library of
the University of California, Berkeley.
Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to
the Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, Mail Code 6000,
University of California, Berkeley 94720-6000, and should include
identification of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the
passages, and identification of the user.
It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows:
Guy Harris, "A Career in Mining Chemicals," an oral
history conducted by Fredric L. Quivik in 2001, Regional
Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, University of
California, Berkeley, 2003.
Copy no. uL
Guy and Elsie Harris
GUY HARRIS TABLE OF CONTENTS
PREFACE i
INTRODUCTION by Douglas Fuerstenau xiii
INTERVIEW HISTORY by Fredric Quivik xix
INTERVIEW 1: MARCH 21, 2001, STROUSE PRESS ROOM, THE BANCROFT LIBRARY
Tape 1 , Side A 1
Family background, b. October 1914, growing up in San Bernardino 1
Awareness of Ku Klux Klan, c. 1926 3
Tape 1, Side B 6
Boy Scouts, Eagle Scout, Sea Scout 8
High School, graduated 1 932, San Bernardino Valley Union Junior College 9
University of California, Berkeley, chemistry major 10
Tape 2, Side A 11
Stanford University, PhD, 1 94 1 , the interrelationship between kaio-cystic acid to other tri-
turpenoids 1 1
INTERVIEW 2: JUNE 7, 2001, THE BANCROFT LIBRARY
Tape 3, Side A 19
Training nuns at Mercy College 19
Paying for graduate study at Stanford; loan plus job correcting papers 20
American Chemical Society meeting in Atlantic City 20
Anti-semitism and job hunting 21
Driving to Cincinnati, October 1941 21
Working for William S. Merrill Co. 22
Synthesized 155 germicides: peridinium, halides, perpediniums 22
Fatherhood means escaping the draft for military service 22
Communists in the union 22
Competition between Shell and Dow 23
Working on anti-malarial drugs at Merrill 24
Working for Padco, Emeryville, CA, improving linoleum 24
Changing jobs in the 1940s: "you were property" 25
Defeating a communist in the union election 27
Great Western Electrical and Chemical Company bought out by Dow 28
Tape 4, Side A 29
Cornelius Keller licensed the xanthate patents to Dow instead of Great Western 29
Harris develops Z200, an improved reagent for flotation 30
Flotation process for recovery of copper from ore 32
Tape 4, Side B 33
Elmer Tveter and invention of Galfroth 250 33
Anaconda improves copper recovery 2% with Z200 34
Developing new reagents for mineral processing 36
Tape 5, Side A 37
INTERVIEW 3: JULY 13, 2001, THE BANCROFT LIBRARY
Tape 6, Side A 39
Competitors, American Cyanamid, Minerek 39
Xanthate, a dithiocarbonate ester, half-ester, alkali metal salt 40
Development of Z200 44
Z200 application at Anaconda 46
Getting into mineral processing applications 47
Tape 7, Side A 50
Difficulties with middle management people 5 1
Research on chicken feed additive, rocket fuel 54
Tape 7, Side B 55
Recalling Cornelius Keller, Elmer Tveter, Richard Klimpel 60
Tape 8, Side A 62
Two years teaching at the University of Ghana 64
Tape 8, Side B 67
Teaching chemistry at John F. Kennedy University 71
INTERVIEW 4: OCTOBER 4, 2001, THE BANCROFT LIBRARY
Tape 9, Side A 73
Family - wife Elsie, m. 1 940 73
Alice Ann born 1941, Robert born 1945, Mary born 1946, Sara born 1951 73
Anti-Catholic sentiment, attendance at various churches 78
Tape 9, Side B 79
Children's education in Ghana and the United States 80
Tape 10, Side A 85
Bible Study Fellowship and religious conversion, 1980 85
Tape 10, Side B 90
Association with Franciscan University, the Dr. Guy Harris Instrument Laboratory 91
Retirement from Dow, 1982 92
Post-retirement, research in reagents for coal and mineral processing with Patrice Ackerman and
Frank Apian at Penn State 93
Research with Douglas Fuerstenau at UC Berkeley 94
Tape 11, Side A 96
Disappointment with management policies and marketing practices at Dow 99
APPENDIX 101
A. Guy Harris Biography 103
B. List of Publications 105
C. List of Patents 107
D. Nomination of Guy Harris for the Frank Apian Award 109
E. Minerals Yearbook Summary of Flotation Reagents for 1985 115
INDEX 127
PREFACE
The oral history series on Western Mining in the Twentieth Century documents the lives of leaders in
mining, metallurgy, geology, education in the earth and materials sciences, mining law, and the pertinent
government bodies. The field includes metal, non-metal, and industrial minerals. In its tenth year the
series numbers thirty-five volumes completed and others in process.
Mining has changed greatly in this century: in the technology and technical education; in the organization
of corporations; in the perception of the national strategic importance of minerals; in the labor movement;
and in consideration of health and environmental effects of mining.
The idea of an oral history series to document these developments in twentieth century mining had been on
the drawing board of the Regional Oral History Office for more than twenty years. The project finally got
underway on January 25, 1986, when Mrs. Willa Baum, Mr. and Mrs. Philip Bradley, Professor and Mrs.
Douglas Fuerstenau, Mr. and Mrs. Clifford Heimbucher, Mrs. Donald McLaughlin, and Mr. and Mrs.
Langan Swent met at the Swent home to plan the project, and Professor Fuerstenau agreed to serve as
Principal Investigator.
An advisory committee was selected which included representatives from the materials science and
mineral engineering faculty and a professor of history of science at the University of California at
Berkeley; a professor emeritus of history from the California Institute of Technology; and executives of
mining companies. Langan Swent delighted in referring to himself as "technical advisor" to the series. He
abetted the project from the beginning, directly with his wise counsel and store of information, and
indirectly by his patience as the oral histories took more and more of his wife's time and attention. He
completed the review of his own oral history transcript when he was in the hospital just before his death in
1992. As some of the original advisors have died, others have been added to help in selecting
interviewees, suggesting research topics, and securing funds.
The project was presented to the San Francisco section of the American Institute of Mining, Metallurgical,
and Petroleum Engineers (AIME) on "Old-timers Night," March 10, 1986, when Philip Read Bradley, Jr.,
was the speaker. This section and the Southern California section of AIME provided initial funding and
organizational sponsorship.
The Northern and Southern California sections of the Woman's Auxiliary to the AIME (WAAIME), the
California Mining Association, and the Mining and Metallurgical Society of America (MMSA) were early
supporters. Later the National Mining Association became a sponsor. The project was significantly
advanced by a generous bequest received in November 1997 upon the death of J. Ward Downey, UC
Berkeley alumnus and early member of the mining series advisory committee. His own oral history was
completed in 1992. Other individual and corporate donors are listed in the volumes. Sponsors to date
include nineteen corporations, four foundations, and 113 individuals. The project is ongoing, and funds
continue to be sought.
The first five interviewees were all born in 1904 or earlier. Horace Albright, mining lawyer and president
of United States Potash Company, was ninety-six years old when interviewed. Although brief, this
interview adds another dimension to a man known primarily as a conservationist.
James Boyd was director of the industry division of the military government of Germany after World War
II, director of the U.S. Bureau of Mines, dean of the Colorado School of Mines, vice president of
Kennecott Copper Corporation, president of Copper Range, and executive director of the National
Commission on Materials Policy. He had reviewed the transcript of his lengthy oral history just before his
death in November, 1987. In 1990, he was inducted into the National Mining Hall of Fame, Leadville,
Colorado.
Philip Bradley, Jr., mining engineer, was a member of the California Mining Board for thirty-two years,
most of them as chairman. He also founded the parent organization of the California Mining Association,
as well as the Western Governors Mining Advisory Council. His uncle, Frederick Worthen Bradley, who
figures in the oral history, was in the first group inducted into the National Mining Hall of Fame in 1988.
Frank McQuiston, metallurgist for the Raw Materials Division of the Atomic Energy Commission and vice
president of Newmont Mining Corporation, died before his oral history was complete; thirteen hours of
taped interviews with him were supplemented by three hours with his friend and associate, Robert
Shoemaker.
Gordon Oakeshott, geologist, was president of the National Association of Geology Teachers and chief of
the California Division of Mines and Geology.
These oral histories establish the framework for the series; subsequent oral histories amplify the basic
themes. After over thirty individual biographical oral histories were completed, a community oral history
was undertaken, documenting the development of the McLaughlin gold mine in the Napa, Yolo, and Lake
Counties of California (the historic Knoxville mercury mining district), and the resulting changes in the
surrounding communities. This comprises forty-three interviews.
Future researchers will turn to these oral histories to learn how decisions were made which led to changes
in mining engineering education, corporate structures, and technology, as well as public policy regarding
minerals. In addition, the interviews stimulate the deposit, by interviewees and others, of a number of
documents, photographs, memoirs, and other materials related to twentieth century mining in the West.
This collection is being added to The Bancroft Library's extensive holdings. A list of completed and in
process interviews for the mining series appears at the end of this volume.
Interviews were conducted by Malca Chall, Fredric L. Quivik and Eleanor Swent.
Eleanor Swent, Project Director
Western Mining in the Twentieth Century Series
January 2003
Regional Oral History Office
University of California, Berkeley
iii
Western Mining in the Twentieth Century Oral History Series
Interviews Completed, October 2003
Horace Albright, Mining Lawyer and Executive, U.S. Potash Company, U.S. Borax, 1933-1962, 1989
Frank F. Apian, Mineral Education Generalist, Professor of Metallurgy and Mineral Processing, 1951-
1998, 2003.
Samuel S. Arentz, Jr., Mining Engineer, Consultant, and Entrepreneur in Nevada and Utah, 1934-1992,
1993
James Boyd, Minerals and Critical Materials Management: Military and Government Administrator and
Mining Executive, 1941-1987, 1988
Philip Read Bradley, Jr., A Mining Engineer in Alaska, Canada, the Western United States, Latin America,
and Southeast Asia, 1 988
Catherine C. Campbell, Ian and Catherine Campbell, Geologists: Teaching, Government Service, Editing,
1989
William Clark, Reporting on California's Gold Mines for the State Division of Mines and Geology, 1951-
1979, 1993
John Robert Clarkson, Building the Clarkson Company, Making Reagent Feeders and Valves for the
Mineral Industry, 1935 to 1998, 1999
Norman Cleaveland, Dredge Mining for Gold, Malaysian Tin, Diamonds, 1921-1966; Exposing the 1883
Murder of William Raymond Morley, 1995
William E. Colby, Reminiscences (California mining lawyer), 1954
Harry M. Conger, Mining Career with ASARCO, Kaiser Steel, Consolidation Coal, Homestake, 1955 to
1995: Junior Engineer to Chairman of the Board, 2001
James T. Curry, Sr., Metallurgist for Empire Star Mine andNewmont Exploration, 1932-1955; Plant
Manager for Calaveras Cement Company, 1956-1975, 1990
Donald Dickey, The Oriental Mine, 1938-1991, 1996
J. Ward Downey, Mining and Construction Engineer, Industrial Management Consultant, 1936 to the
1990s, 1992
Warren Fenzi, Junior Engineer to President, Director ofPhelps Dodge, 1937 to 1984, 1996
Hedley S. "Pete" Fowler, Mining Engineer in the Americas, India, and Africa, 1933-1983, 1992
James Mack Gerstley, Executive, U.S. Borax & Chemical Corporation; Trustee, Pomona College; Civic
Leader, San Francisco Asian Art Museum, 1 99 1
IV
Robert M. Haldeman, Managing Copper Mines in Chile: Braden, CODELCO, Minerec, Pudahuel;
Developing Controlled Bacterial Leaching of Copper from Sulfide Ores; 1941-1993, 1995
Guy Harris, A Career in Mining Chemicals, 2003
John F. Havard, Mining Engineer and Executive, 1935-1981, 1992
Wayne Hazen, Plutonium Technology Applied to Mineral Processing; Solvent Extraction; Building Hazen
Research; 1940-1993, 1995
George Heikes, Mining Geologist on Four Continents, 1924-1974, 1992
Helen R. Henshaw, Recollections of Life -with Paul Henshaw: Latin America, Homestake Mining
Company, 1988
Homestake Mine Workers, Lead, South Dakota, 1929-1993, interviews with Clarence Kravig, Wayne
Harford, and Kenneth Kinghorn, 1995
Lewis L. Huelsdonk, Manager of Gold and Chrome Mines, Spokesman for Gold Mining, 1935-1974, 1988
William Humphrey, Mining Operations and Engineering Executive for Anaconda, Newmont, Homestake,
1950 to 1995, 1996
Hugh C. Ingle, Jr., Independent Small Mines Operator, 1948 to 1999; Corona Mine, 2000
James Jensen, Chemical and Metallurgical Process Engineer: Making Deuterium, Extracting Salines and
Base and Heavy Metals, 1938-1 990s, 1993
Arthur I. Johnson, Mining and Metallurgical Engineer in the Black Hills: Pegmatites and Rare Minerals,
1922 to the 1990s, 1990
G. Frank Joklik, Exploration Geologist, Developer ofMt. Newman, President and CEO ofKennecott,
1949-1996; Chairman, Salt Lake 2002 Olympic Winter Games Committee, 1997
Evan Just, Geologist: Engineering and Mining Journal, Marshall Plan, Cyprus Mines Corporation, and
Stanford University, 1922-1980, 1989
Robert Kendall, Mining Borax, Shaft-Freezing in Potash Mines, U.S. Borax, Inc., 1954-1988, 1994
The Knoxville Mining District, The McLaughlin Gold Mine, Northern California, Volume I, 1998
Anderson, James, "Homestake Vice President-Exploration"
Baker, Will, "Citizen Activist, Yolo County"
Birdsey, Norman, "Metallurgical Technician, McLaughlin Process Plant"
Bledsoe, Brice, "Director, Solano Irrigation District"
The Knoxville Mining District, The McLaughlin Gold Mine, Northern California, Volume II, 1998
Cerar, Anthony, "Mercury Miner, 1935-1995"
Ceteras, John, "Organic Farmer, Yolo County"
Conger, Harry, "President, Chairman, and CEO, Homestake Mining Company, 1977 to 1994"
Corley, John Jay, "Chairman, Napa County Planning Commission, 1981 to 1985"
Cornelison, William, "Superintendent of Schools, Lake County" (Includes an interview with John
A. Drummond, Lake County Schools Attorney)
The Knoxville Mining District, The Mclaughlin Gold Mine, Northern California, Volume III, 1 998
Crouch, David, "Homestake Corporate Manager-Environmental Affairs"
Enderlin, Elmer, "Miner in Fifty-Eight Mines"
Fuller, Claire, "Fuller's Superette Market, Lower Lake"
Goldstein, Dennis, "Homestake Corporate Lawyer"
Guinivere, Rex, "Homestake Vice President-Engineering"
The Knoxville Mining District, The Mclaughlin Gold Mine, Northern California, Volume IV, 1 998
Gustafson, Donald, "Homestake Exploration Geologist, 1975-1990"
Hanchett, Bonny Jean, "Owner and Editor, Clearlake Observer, 1955-1986"
Hickey, James, "Director of Conservation, Development, and Planning for Napa County, 1970 to
1990"
Jago, Irene, "The Jagos of Jago Bay, Clear Lake"
Jonas, James, "Lake County Fuel Distributor"
Koontz, Dolora, "Environmental Engineer, McLaughlin Mine, 1988-1995"
The Knoxville Mining District, The McLaughlin Gold Mine, Northern California, Volume V, 1998
Kritikos, William, "Operator, Oat Hill Mine"
Landman, John, "Rancher, Morgan Valley"
Lyons, Roberta, "Journalist and Environmentalist"
Madsen, Roger, "Homestake Mechanical Engineer"
Magoon, Beverly, "Merchant and Craft Instructor, Lower Lake"
McGinnis, Edward, "Worker at the Reed Mine"
The Knoxville Mining District, The McLaughlin Gold Mine, Northern California, Volume VI, 1 999
Robert McKenzie, "McKenzies in Monticello, Berryessa Valley"
Harold Moskowite, "Napa County Supervisor"
Marion Onstad, "Neighbor and Employee of the McLaughlin Mine, 1980-1995"
Ronald Parker, "Resident Manager of the McLaughlin Mine, 1988-1994"
Richard Stoehr, "Homestake Engineer and Geologist to Senior Vice-President and Director"
Joseph Strapko, "Exploration Geologist, McLaughlin Mine Discovery, 1978"
The Knoxville Mining District, The McLaughlin Gold Mine, Northern California, Volume VII, 2000
Jack Thompson, "General Manager, McLaughlin Mine, 1981-1988"
Twyla Thompson, "County Supervisor, Yolo County, 1975-1985"
Avery Tindell, "Capay Valley Environmentalist"
John Turney, "McLaughlin Metallurgist: Pioneering Autoclaving for Gold"
Delia Underwood, "Knoxville Rancher, McLaughlin Mine Surveyor"
Walter Wilcox, "County Supervisor, Lake County, 1979-1995"
Peter Scribner, "Boyhood at the Knoxville Mine, 1941-1944"
VI
The Knoxville Mining District, The Mclaughlin Gold Mine, Northern California, Volume VIII, 2002
Dean Enderlin, "Mine Geologist, Reclamation Manager, McLaughlin Mine"
Susan Harrison, "McLaughlin Natural Reserve"
Raymond Krauss, "Environmental Manager, McLaughlin Mine"
Marian Lane, Mine Doctor's Wife in Mexico During the 1920s, 1996
John Sealy Livermore, Prospector, Geologist, Public Resource Advocate: Carlin Mine Discovery, 1961;
Nevada Gold Rush, 1970s, 2000
J. David Lowell, Using Applied Geology to Discover Large Copper and Gold Mines in Arizona, Chile, and
Peru, 1999
Plato Malozemoff, A Life in Mining: Siberia to Chairman ofNewmont Mining Corporation, 1909-1985,
1990
Donald H. McLaughlin, Careers in Mining Geology and Management, University Governance and
Teaching, 1975
James and Malcolm McPherson, Brothers in Mining, 1992
Frank Woods McQuiston, Jr., Metallurgist for Newmont Mining Corporation and U.S. Atomic Energy
Commission, 1934-1982, 1989
Gordon B. Oakeshott, The California Division of Mines and Geology, 1948-1974, 1988
James H. Orr, An Entrepreneur in Mining in North and South America, 1930s to 1990s, 1995
Vincent D. Perry, A Half Century as Mining and Exploration Geologist with the Anaconda Company, 1991
Patrick Purtell, Maintenance and Management at the McLaughlin Mine, 1985 to 1997, 1999
Carl Randolph, Research Manager to President, U.S. Borax & Chemical Corporation, 1957-1986, 1992
John Reed, Pioneer in Applied Rock Mechanics, Braden Mine, Chile, 1944-1950; St. Joseph Lead
Company, 1955-1960; Colorado School of Mines, 1960-1972, 1993
Joseph Rosenblatt, EIMCO, Pioneer in Underground Mining Machinery and Process Equipment, 1926-
1963, 1992
Robert Shoemaker, Metallurgical Engineer : Union Carbide, Bechtel, San Francisco Mining Associates;
Metallurgical Consultant, 1953 to 2000, 2001
Eugene David Smith, Working on the Twenty-Mule Team: Laborer to Vice President, U.S. Borax &
Chemical Corporation, 1941-1989, 1993
Simon Strauss, Market Analyst for Non-ferrous Metals and Non-metallic Minerals, Journalist, Mining
Corporation Executive, 1927-1994, 1995
Vll
Langan W. Swent, Working for Safety and Health in Underground Mines: San Luis and Homestake
Mining Companies, 1946-1988, 1995
James V. Thompson, Mining and Metallurgical Engineer: the Philippine Islands; Dorr, Humphreys,
Kaiser Engineers Companies; 1940-1990s, 1992
William Wilder, Owner of One Shot Mining Company: Manhattan Mercury Mine, 1965-1981, 1996
Alexander M. Wilson, Leading a Changing Utah Construction and Mining Company: Utah International,
GE-Utah, BHP-Utah, 1954 to 1987, 2000
Interviews In Process
Douglas Fuerstenau, metallurgist
Noel Kirshenbaum, metallurgist
Roy Woodall, geologist
Interviews in Abeyance
Milton Ward, mining executive
Vlll
ix
ADVISORS TO THE SERIES, WESTERN MINING IN THE TWENTIETH CENTURY
Professor Emeritus Douglas Fuerstenau, Principal Investigator
Plato Malozemoff Professor, Department of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering, University of
California, Berkeley
Robert W. Bartlett,
Dean Emeritus, College of Mines, University of
Idaho
Robert R. Beebe,
Senior Vice President (retired),
Homestake Mining Company
Michael Bickers,
President, CEO (retired),
Davy-McKee Corp.
*Philip R. Bradley,
Former Chairman, California State
Mining and Geology Board
Mrs. Philip R. Bradley,
Honorary Life Member,
WAAIME
Gray Brechin,
Historical Geographer
George Brimhall,
Department of Earth and
Planetary Science,
University of California, Berkeley
Henry Colen,
President, San Francisco Mining
Associates
*Professor Neville G. Cook,
Department of Materials Science and
Mineral Engineering,
University of California, Berkeley
Kenneth R. Coyne,
Principal Vice President-Mining and Metals,
(retired) Bechtel Corporation
*J. Ward Downey,
Engineering and Industrial
Management Consultant
Professor Emeritus Douglas Fuerstenau,
Department of Materials Science and Mineral
Engineering,
University of California, Berkeley
Professor Emeritus Richard Goodman,
Department of Civil Engineering,
University of California, Berkeley
Professor Roger Hahn,
Department of History,
University of California, Berkeley
Joseph Hanzel,
Facilities Safety Manager,
NASA-Ames Research Center
*John Havard,
Senior Vice President (retired),
Kaiser Engineers, Inc.
•"Clifford Heimbucher,
C.P.A. Consultant,
Varian Associates, Inc.
William A. Humphrey,
President, CEO, Vice Chairman (retired),
Homestake Mining Company
"John R. Kiely,
Senior Executive Consultant
(retired), Bechtel, Inc.
Noel Kirshenbaum,
Manager, Mineral ProductsDevelopment (retired),
Placer Dome U.S.
Tlato Malozemoff,
Chairman Emeritus, Newmont Mining
Corporation
Joseph P. Matoney,
Vice President (retired) Coal, Kaiser Engineers,
Inc.
Mrs. Donald H. McLaughlin,
Founder, Save San Francisco Bay
Association
Professor Malcolm McPherson,
Massey Professor of Mining Engineering,
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
*Professor Emeritus Charles Meyer,
Department of Geology,
University of California, Berkeley
Professor H. Frank Morrison,
Department of Materials Science and
Mineral Engineering,
University of California, Berkeley
*Professor Joseph A. Pask,
Department of Materials Science and
Mineral Engineering,
University of California, Berkeley
*Professor Emeritus Rodman Paul,
Department of History,
California Institute of Technology
*Langan W. Swent,
Vice President (retired), Homestake
Mining Company
* Deceased during the period of the
project
The Regional Oral History Office
would like to express its thanks to the organizations
and individuals whose encouragement and support have made possible
The Western Mining in the Twentieth Century Series.
DONORS TO
THE WESTERN MINING IN THE TWENTIETH CENTURY
ORAL HISTORY SERIES
1986-1999
Organizations and Foundations
American Institute of Mining, Metallurgical, and Petroleum Engineers,
San Francisco, Southern California, and Black Hills Sections
Woman's Auxiliary to the AIME, Southern California and Northern California
Bechtel Foundation
California Mining Association
The Cleveland-Cliffs Foundation
The Jackling Fund of the Mining and Metallurgical Society of America
National Mining Association
South Dakota School of Mines and Technology
The Hearst Foundation, Inc.
Plato Malozemoff Foundation
Public Resource Foundation
Rosenblatt Charitable Fund
Corporations
ASARCO
Bechtel Group Incorporated
BHP Minerals
Chemical Lime Company
The Clarkson Company
Cleveland-Cliffs, Inc.
Cyprus Amax Minerals Company
Cytec
Dow Chemical Company
EIMCO Process Equipment Company
E. M. Warburg, Pincus & Co., Inc.
Freeport-McMoRan
Hazen Research, Inc.
Hecla Mining Company
Homestake Mining Company
Kennecott Corporation
Krebs Engineers
Magma Copper Company
Newmont Mining Corporation
Pacific Gas & Electric Company
Phelps Dodge Corporation
Royal Gold, Inc.
United States Borax & Chemical Corporation
Wharf Resources, Limited
WMC Limited
The J. Ward Downey Bequest Fund
Dr. Patrick M. Afenya
Frank F. Apian
Charles and Lois Barber
James Boyd
Arthur C. Bradley
Catherine C. Campbell
Curtis Clarkson
J. Robert and Edna M. Clarkson
Xll
Norman Cleaveland
Rosemary and Harry M. Conger
Barbara H. and James T. Curry, Jr.
Stanley Dempsey
Donald Dickey Wayne Dowdey
J. Ward and Alberta P. Downey
Mr. & Mrs. Warren Fenzi
Bryant and Gertrude Fischback
Douglas and Margaret Fuerstenau
Launce E. Gamble
James M. Gerstley
Robert M. Haldeman
Mrs. Paul C. Henshaw, in memory of
her husband, Paul C. Henshaw
William A. Humphrey
James H. Jensen
Arthur I. Johnson
G. Frank Joklik
Individuals
Claude J. Artero
David L. Bauer
Rebecca Bender
Bruce A. Bolt
Clemence DeGraw Jandrey Boyd
James Brown Boyd, Harry Bruce Boyd, Douglas
Cane Boyd, and Hudson Boyd in memory of James
Boyd
Philip and Katharine Bradley
Albert T. Chandler
David J. Christie
William B. Clark
J. R. Clarkson in memory of Edna Mae Clarkson
Dr. amd Mrs. Theodore Craig
Mr. David Crouch
Nancy S. and James T. Curry, Sr.
Stanley Dempsey
Edward C. Dowling
Elisabeth L. Egenhoff
Christine Finney
H. S. Pete Fowler
Maurice and Joyce Fuerstenau
Louis R. Goldsmith
Donald L. Gustafson
Jayne K. Haldane
Kenneth N. Han
Guy H. Harris
Bonnie, Russell, and Steve Harford
James H. Hickey
Arthur H. Kinneberg
Mrs. Lois B. Lippincott
John S. Livermore
J. David Lowell
Dean A. McGee
Mrs. Frank W. McQuiston, Jr., in
memory of Frank W. McQuiston, Jr.
George B. Munroe
Gordon B. Oakeshott
Thomas and Margaret O'Neil
Vincent D. Perry
Carl L. Randolph
Joseph and Evelyn Rosenblatt
Berne Schepman
Mr. and Mrs. Richard J. Stoehr
Langan and Eleanor Swent
Adele and Milton Ward
Mr. and Mrs. Alexander M. Wilson
Mason L. and Marie J. Hill
Gael Hodgkins
Sylvia Hochscheid, in memory of
Robert E. Hochscheid
Mrs. Bruce S. Howard, in memory of
Henry Harland Bradley
Lewis L. Huelsdonk
Ruth B. Hume
Howard Janin
Jack M. Jones
Alfred Juhl
Evan Just
Sheila Kelley
James C. Kimble
Kenneth Kinghorn
Noel W. Kirshenbaum
Mr. and Mrs. John T. Knox
Nancy H. Landwehr
Carl F. Love
Plato Malozemoff
Sylvia C. McLaughlin
Sylvia C. McLaughlin, in memory of
Jay Kimpston Swent
Frances B. Messinger
D. R. Nagaraj
L. Arthur Norman, Jr.
Patrick O'Neill
K. Osseo-Asare
George F. Reed
xiii
John J. Reed
Richard W. Rees
Jane A. Rummel
Robert S. Shoemaker
Joseph H. Siino
Simon D. Strauss
John R. Stmthers
Virginia Bradley Sutherland, in
memory of Helen R. Henshaw
Jack Thompson
James V. Thompson
Twyla J. Thompson
John J. Trelawney
William I. Watson
Barbara A. Whitton in memory of William B.
Whitton
William B. Whitton
Sheldon Wimpfen
Judy D. Woodward
In Memory of Catherine C. Campbell
Mr. and Mrs. E. W. Averill, Jr.Richard Friedlander
Fenelon F. DavisRichard M. Stewart
In Memory of Lanean W. Swent
Marjorie D. Bjorlo
Christine W. S. Byrd
John and Dagmar Dern
Sylvia C. McLaughlin
Eleanor H. Swent
Jeannette F. Swent
Richard L. Swent
Regional Oral History Office Staff
In Memory of William B. Clark
Fenelon Davis
Lowell Dygert
Mary G. Freedman
Marilyn Glover
Virginia Goldsmith
Barbara Henderson
John Matschek
Hilda Schramm
George Shutes
Barbara Vollmer
Mary Witt
Mary Woods
In Memory of J. Ward Downey
Willa Baum
Douglas Fuerstenau
James Jensen
Eleanor H. Swent
In Memory of Phillip R. Bradley. Jr.
Mr. and Mrs. John P. Austin
Gail and Heath Angelo, Jr.
Earl Beistline
The Claremont Book Club
Judge and Mrs. John S. Cooper
Professor Emeritus Gregory Grossman
Marily and Thomas Johnson
Remington and Jean Low
Sylvia C. McLaughlin
XIV
Rubye C. Reade
Mr. and Mrs. Thomas B. Shaw
Judge and Mrs. John Sparrow
Eleanor H. Swent
T. M. Tobin
Dr. and Mrs. Edward E. Waller, Jr.
XV
DONORS TO
THE GUY HARRIS ORAL HISTORY OF
THE WESTERN MINING IN THE TWENTIETH CENTURY ORAL HISTORY SERIES
The Regional Oral History Office, on behalf of future researchers, would like to express its thanks to the
following corporations, organizations, and individuals whose encouragement and support have made
possible this oral history project of Guy Harris.
Corporations and Organizations
Cytec
Dow Chemical
Dr. Patrick M. Afenya
Bryant and Gertrude Fischback
Individuals
Frank F. Apian
David L. Bauer
Renhe Jia
D. R. Nagaraj
Joseph H. Siino
Douglas W. and Margaret Fuerstenau
XVI
XVII
INTRODUCTION by Douglas W. Fuerstenau
Guy Harris was a person whose work had real impact on this world and we all are better off that Guy
passed through it. From our many conversations, I know that he had real dedication to his family, to his
religion, to his colleagues, and to his profession.
I had known of the technical contributions that Guy had made to mining chemicals and to processing in the
mineral industry long before I met him. Guy was an extraordinarily gifted and creative organic chemist
with a long list of very significant chemical achievements in the Mining Chemicals Division of Dow
Chemical Company. The person at Dow whom I had gotten to know quite well through the years was
Elmer Tveter, who regularly attended annual meetingss of the AIME. Elmer was a close associate of Guy
and an outstanding flotations testing engineer, both in the laboratory and in flotation plants. Even though
Guy worked only fifteen miles away from Berkeley at the Dow Research Laboratories in Walnut Creek,
almost all of my early interaction with him was at international meetings. I first met Guy personally in
1 963 at the International Mineral Processing Congress in France where I had traveled with Elmer Tveter,
then in 1970 in Yugoslavia, in Brazil in 1977, and in Rome in 1980 at a mineral reagents symposium. At
all of these congresses, my interaction with Guy was quite extensive, such as spending a week on a
technical tour traveling though Yugoslavia by bus. It was only about 1980 that I first visited Guy in his
laboratory at Dow during a consulting matter over the development of a new frother for molybdenite
flotation.
Some information about the magnitude of chemical reagent consumption by the mining industry should
help in understanding the significance of Guy's work. From 1960 to 1895, the US Bureau of Mines
collected data every five years on operating flotation plants in the United States, including details on
reagent consumption. In 1980, about the time that Guy retired, in the United States there were 239
flotation plants, which treated 440,400,000 tonnes of ore with a corruption of 772,100 tonnes of chemical
reagents, or 1.75 kg per tonne of ore processed. Of the two major types of ore treated, one was a sulfide
(copper) and the other nonmetallic (phosphate). In 1980, the amount of copper ore processed totaled
205,400,000 tonnes, producing 4,200,000 tonnes of concentrates while consuming 382,900 tonnes of
chemical reagents. In the case of phosphate minerals, 108,700,000 tonnes of ore were treated by flotation
to produce 26,600,000 tonnes of concentrates at a reagent consumption of 221,200 tonnes. Clearly, the
magnitude of mining chemical usage is huge. Because of the unfortunate demise of the Bureau of Mines,
such data are no longer available, and for the record, part of the 1985 Bureau of Mines Flotation Summary
is included in the appendix.
Although Guy's professional career was in industrial chemistry, he had a strong passion for education.
Some forty years ago, he took a leave of absence from Dow to spend two years teaching chemistry at the
University of Ghana. He was very proud that he had inspired two of his students there to go on to obtain
PhD degrees, one at Berkeley and one at the Royal School of Mines in London. For a few years, Guy
taught chemistry as an adjunct professor after the founding of John F. Kennedy University. He spent a few
months at Penn State University and for the last several years, he was associated with me at Berkeley in the
University of California.
Nearly fifteen years ago at Berkeley, we had the opportunity of preparing a proposal for a major DOE
project to investigate the removal of sulfur from coal. It occurred to me to invite Guy to be part of this
project to design new flotation reagents that might act as selective depressants for pyrite in coal flotation.
We were awarded the contract and Guy had a significant role in its success. I only wished that I had
thought of bringing Guy into our group years earlier.
XVI 11
From that time on, Guy came to the Berkeley campus quire regularly, once or twice each week, and several
graduate students had close interaction with him starting back then and right up to a few weeks before he
died. I recall with pleasure Guy's generally cheerful arrival at my office, and his often starting right in with
the presentation of an enthusiastic new idea that he had come up with. I know that those students who
worked with Guy consider themselves very fortunate to have been associated with him on their research
for their master's and doctor's theses.
Guy had a keen eye for patentable ideas. He always looked at reagent possibilities in terms of costs of
materials for making them—if too expensive, they would never be used. Working with graduate students,
Guy developed certain reagents that can act as flotation collectors for coal, either fresh or oxidized coal.
He was extremely disappointed that the University of California patent people let our application go to the
last day, when it was too late. Later, we did obtain patents on some new depressants for pyrite in sulfide
floation.
About five years ago, Guy and I were invited to China, together with his daughter Alice and my wife
Peggy. Guy gave several lectures in Beijing and in Huainan, and I would like to say that I learned
something new from Guy's lectures. In 2000, Guy was named an Honorary Professor at the Huainin
Institute of Technology. Some few years ago, he was named a Distinguished Member of SME/AIME (the
Society for Mining, Metallurgy and Exploration), recognition given to only one percent of the membership
of the society, which has a total membership of 12,000 engineers and scientists. SME recognized the
major impact that Guy's reagent inventions had on the production of copper worldwide. Last year, shortly
before his death, Guy was nominated for the Frank Apian Award. That nomination is given in the
appendix to show the high regard that others in the field had for him.
Even the last time that Guy was in my office, he wrote on the blackboard several ideas for new reagents
that might be usedul for improving flotation separations. His mind was extremely fertile, even to his last
days. This year, 2002, we had a technical paper published jointly with a former graduate student, Dr.
Renhe Jia. This was in Guy's 88th year and there are not many people in this world who have made
professional contributions at that stage in their life. The mining chemicals that he invented will be a lasting
legacy of his creative work.
University of California, Berkeley
Berkeley, California
November, 2002
Douglas Fuerstenau
Professor Emeritus
Department of Materials Science and Engineering
XIX
INTERVIEW HISTORY - Guy Harris
Guy Harris retired as a chemist with Dow Chemical in 1982. At Dow, he had been responsible for the
development of Z200, a chemical reagent used by mining companies in the flotation process to separate
copper minerals from waste minerals, called gangue. Guy's invention of Z200 is credited with increasing
the recovery of copper worldwide by 80 million pounds annually. Even in retirement Guy maintained a
keen intellectual interest in chemical processes, especially those related to the mining industry. After
retiring from Dow, he worked on research projects with Doug Fuerstenau, Professor of Metallurgy at the
University of California at Berkeley. Professor Fuerstenau is also a member of the advisory committee for
ROHO's Mining History Project. Knowing of Guy's long history with Dow and of the importance of Z200
to the mining industry, as well as for his work in the development of ion exchange processing of uranium
ores and in mentoring many others who furthered his research, Professor Fuerstenau recommended that
ROHO interview Guy. Because Eleanor (Lee) Swent was busy with some other interviews, and because of
my familiarity with flotation and other processes in extractive metallurgy, Lee asked me to conduct the
interview, and I gladly accepted the assignment.
Professor Fuerstenau introduced me to Guy over lunch at the U.C. Faculty Club. I immediately learned
that Guy loved to tell stories, to use anecdotes as a means of explaining. After that first meeting, I next
drove out to Guy's home in Concord, where I met his wife Elsie and daughter Sara. Guy showed me his
files and some photos, and he talked generally about the course of his life and career. He was especially
pleased to show me documents and photographs of Franciscan University, the school in Steubenville,
Ohio, of which he had become a benefactor in recent years. From the lunch and my visit to his home, I was
able to devise an outline for his interview, which I sent to him so that he could work further on the
recollections of his life in preparation for the oral history.
Guy and I conducted his interviews in the Press Room of the Bancroft Library. He continued to enjoy
making visits to the U.C. campus, so interviewing him there was convenient. He sometimes coordinated
our interview sessions with appointments with Doug Fuerstenau. We completed Guy's oral history in four
sessions: 21 March, June 7, 13 July, and 4 October 2001. During that time, he was receiving treatment for
cancer, which caused the postponement of the second session until June. Even then, the doctors were
trying to adjust his medication levels. Guy thought he was ready to resume the interview in June, but
during that session he tired rather quickly and became a bit disoriented toward the end, so we adjourned
early. By July, though, he was back to his gregarious self, happy to share more anecdotes to illustrate his
work at Dow. Guy was at his best during the fourth and final interview when, among other things, he
described his experience of coming to faith in Jesus Christ. During earlier interview sessions, he did not
hide the fact that for most of his life he was an agnostic and rather a curmudgeon when it came to others'
Christian faith, which makes his story especially engaging. Anyone listening to or reading Guy's interview
will notice that in discussing other topics he typically gave rather short answers, and I often had to
encourage him to elaborate with follow-up questions. When describing his conversion experience and his
baptism, however, he talked at length and with great joy, not needing any encouragement from me.
The interviews were transcribed in our office, and lightly edited by myself and Eleanor Swent. Guy Harris
died on 16 November 2002, before he had been able to review all the transcripts of his interview.
Fredric Quivik, Interviewer
October, 2003
XX
INTERVIEW WITH GUY HARRIS
[Interview 1 : March 21, 2001] [Begin Tape 1, Side A]
Quivik: Good morning. My name is Fred Quivik, and I'm interviewing Guy Harris, a longtime
chemist with Dow Chemical Company. It's March 21st, 2001 and we are in the Press
Seminar room at Bancroft Library, on the campus of the University of California at
Berkeley. Good morning, Mr. Harris. We're here to interview you about your life and
career as a chemist. I wonder if you could start by describing some things about your
family background before we get to your career as a chemist. Could you start by saying
something about your father's family?
Harris: My grandfather's mother was Pennsylvania Dutch, which is German. His father was
north Irish, and his name was John. John, at the age of fourteen, ran away from home
and lied about his age and enlisted in the Union Army—Civil War. His parents tracked
him down and he ran away again, only this time he used a false name and they weren't
able to track him down at all.
He was a railroad man. He worked originally for the Atlantic and Pacific Railroad,
which became part of the Santa Fe. His wife was Sarah Moore, and became Sarah
Harris. He worked for the Santa Fe, and he had a rather lowly position. One day he was
working on wheels of some freight cars and he put up the blue flag. Someone came
along and didn't see him and said, "What's this blue flag for? Someone forgot it." And
they took it. The switch engine came up and no blue flag, so they connected with the
freight cars and he got badly mangled under the car. He lived about a year and a half
after that. And that was the end of his life.
Quivik: Approximately what year was that?
Harris: My niece will have that.
Quivik: And where was he living when he died?
Harris: Hollywood.
Quivik: California?
Harris: Yes. They lived out along the railroad in Needles and northern Arizona. My dad was
born in El Paso, Texas. My granddad was buried in the Hollywood cemetery, and I saw
his grave marker when my aunt, my dad's sister, died in 1922 and we went to the funeral
mass. There was all this smoke and stuff. It was real scary for a little kid that was only
eight years old. We went to the cemetery. They were poor. There was a pillar about
four feet high, "Woodmen of the World." I remembered that.
Quivik: Was the smoke from incense?
Harris: Yes, at the mass. At the cemetery my Aunt Etta had him buried next to her dad. They
had originally bought it for my granddad and my grandmother. Aunt Etta's husband
was a butcher, and there was no union, so it really wasn't a very lucrative position.
Quivik: Where were you living at the time?
Harris: San Bernardino. We'd take the big red cars into Los Angeles and transfer and get out at
the street they lived on in Hollywood. My grandmother had married again, to Uncle
Jake. Uncle Jake, his claim to fame was he took the Nellie Bly Special around the
world in eighty days, and he was selected to run the train over that particular division.
My dad, for those days, was reasonably well educated because he'd gone through the
tenth grade. Young men were expected to get enough education to read and write, and
then get a job. He was a railroad fireman, but they had a picture of him and couple of
other men coming out of a saloon. Rule G was that if you're caught drinking, you're
sacked, you're fired, you're canned. So when he married my mother, the man who was
head of the Santa Fe at the time west of Albuquerque, Mr. Wall, gave my dad a job
back.
My dad was very unhandy, but he knew how to make a steam boiler talk. So he ran the
steam boiler in the carpenter's shop in the San Bernardino railroad yards. The scrap
lumber was the fuel. He had that job until 1922 when the railroads got rid of the unions
that they got stuck with during World War I.
Back to the first house: it was a rental, and there was a big fig tree in back. I couldn't
climb to the top because the branch was about that much and I couldn't stretch enough
to reach it. I wanted to get to the top of that tree. So on my sixth birthday I got up and
ran out and climbed that tree, because now I was six and that darn branch was just as far
away [laughter] and it was fine.
Quivik: What year were you born?
Harris: 1914.
Quivik: And what date?
Harris: October the second. I was a railroad kid at heart. My mother said that when they would
come from town walking with a baby buggy, we would cross the tracks and I would
start screaming. She finally figured out that I wanted to be by the railroad tracks. She
could go an extra block by paralleling the tracks. As soon as she did that I stopped
screaming.
I was sneaking out and going down the railroad tracks and to the railroad yards. I
vaguely remember them taking me to my dad. I vaguely remember the boiler room.
My mother was real concerned about me running around the tracks. They checked. My
brother, my half-brother, checked the fence and everything was there. So my mother
watched, and I was looking at the window, looking around. Finally I went over and I
moved a picket over, went through and put the picket back. That was the end of my
running away from home.
I mentioned my half-brother. He and a neighbor kid had dug a ditch and covered it with
wood and then dirt, and that was their secret cave. My dad ordered wood, firewood, we
heated the house with wood. The man with the load of wood and his team of horses
came along and one of his wheels [laughter] hit the boards and down it went. My
brother and his friend hastily filled the hole.
Quivik: Was your brother older than you?
Harris: Yes, ten years.
Quivik: Was he your father's son or your mother's?
Harris: Mother's.
Quivik: When did your parents meet, and how did they meet?
Harris: I haven't the foggiest idea. My father, as I mentioned, he got his job--not his job, a job
-back with the railroad. He was a laborer. Thirty-five cents an hour. Of course, you
could get a loaf of bread for a nickel. When the people running the power plant boiler
were going on vacation, my dad would get that job. So occasionally we would get a
halfway decent bit of money. But I mentioned he lost his job because they went out on
strike in 1922. He got a job over at the Colton cement plant.
In about 1926, the Ku Klux Klan really surged. My dad never went to church, but if
you criticized the Catholic Church he'd defend it. He would not throw rocks at a
Catholic church. That was his prerogative. Well, there was a big layoff. Everyone that
got laid off was a Catholic, and since he argued Catholic, they figured he was. One man
didn't get laid off, and he was married to the boss's daughter. My mother would drive
over and get my dad when he was working there. We would be in with all the people
leaving. We would see a car with the license plate frame "KIGY." That was supposed
to be a secret, but everyone knew it meant "Klansman I greet you." So everyone with
one of those was a KKK supporter.
Quivik: Was this a group of Klansmen in the San Bernardino area?
Harris: Yes. There were really a lot of them.
Quivik: Did they make themselves visible so that you as a child could see them in action?
Harris: Once we got sidetracked off the road and we went up. They were at a distance so you
didn't know what they were saying. They were there in their white robes and burning
cross and with fire and all. That was kind of spooky.
Quivik: Who were their main targets in your area?
Harris: Blacks, Jews, Catholics.
Quivik: Did your family feel any repercussions of your dad's connection, such as it was, with the
Catholic Church?
Harris: No, but he had lost his job at the cement plant. My mother had bought a house. We
were a couple hundred yards from the gate, one of the gates getting into the railroad
yards, and all of our neighbors were railroad people, mostly. And then most of our
neighbors were strikebreakers. The union trainmen ran the trains that brought the
strikebreakers that took my dad's job. When we moved from the rental house to the
purchased house—
Quivik: Approximately what year was that?
Harris: It was about 1922, '21.1 was going to the Mt. Vernon School, which was close to the
place we rented, and my mother bought the house with her money. I remember there
was kind of a long walk to the Mt. Vernon School and we switched over to the F Street
School. That was a beautiful X-shaped wing, four wings, two stories and then a
basement. 1884. Let's see, I'm getting onto me, and I haven't covered my mother yet.
Quivik: Yes, we'll get to her. I had a question. This would be a good time to ask what was the
source of your mother's money?
Harris: I mentioned my dad was Catholic. My mother was Dutch Reform. Her folks, her
ancestors were the ones that pulled a fast one on the Indians and got Manhattan Island
for a few trinkets. They were the ones that the British came in, the Duke of York came
in and took over New Amsterdam. Her ancestors lived in New York City. She was
born in Brooklyn, which at that time I don't think was part of New York City. Her dad
was a contractor and very, very honest. In those days, you couldn't get a bond
protection. You just had to find someone who had a reputation of being honest and
capable. And he was both. She was telling that he would just go down and write the
sum of a column—they didn't have calculators then.
Her mother died when my mother was only four. Her father died when she was
fourteen. She had pictures of a hospital in Brooklyn he had constructed, and then a
theater, a movie theater building. He would not have built a building in which there was
going to be a saloon. He had a life-long friend. My granddad put up the building and
one day he went by and there was a saloon in the building. He would walk by that man
that he had known for all his life as though he was a lamppost. He was very strict with
himself as well, and so he was fairly well off and my mother was very bright.
The school was eight and four. The teacher was always asking my mother the solution
of this and this. Finally my mother tactlessly said, "Oh you're asking me that because
you really don't know." And that teacher was really uptight with my mother after that.
To go to high school you had to pass a citywide set of examinations. All the people in
the class but my mother got their primary school diploma. When everyone had left the
teacher handed my mother her diploma and said, "If I had my way, you would never
have gotten this." But it was a city exam and there was nothing she could do about it.
Quivik: You said the school was "eight and four." What do the eight and the four refer to?
Harris: Eighth grade, and then ninth grade was the first year of high school. I don't know how
she met her first husband, but he was a sheet metal worker. They came west and on
their way they stopped in Denver and stayed at the Brown Palace Hotel. It was the elite
hotel in Denver then and a real good one now. And the amusing thing was that was the
first place mother had ever run into bed bugs in a room in the Brown Palace Hotel.
They came to Los Angeles and her husband ran a union shop. No one else did. So he
paid good wages, and really, the net wasn't that great. My mother finally wised up that
he was liquidating her inheritance on another woman.
So she divorced him, and back in the early 20th century, that really wasn't an acceptable
thing, but she had to dump him. Ironically the woman he was unloading my mother's
inheritance on, she had a fellow on the side, and when the money stopped, she dumped
my mother's first husband, [chuckle] Justice prevailed.
Quivik: Justice prevailed.
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Now, what was your mother's name?
Harris: Nellie Mae Kate Hendrickson. In '36 we went back and I met her brother William
Hendrickson. He had a problem with employment because, if he'd been a Democrat he
would have gotten one of these government sponsored program jobs, but since he was a
Republican he didn't qualify. He was a contractor too.
Quivik: And your half-brother's name?
Harris: Lester.
Quivik: Lester?
Harris: It was Crabbe, and when he graduated from high school all his records said Harris so he
had his name legally changed to Harris.
Quivik: So your mother's first husband's name was Crabbe?
Harris: Yes, c-r-a-double b-e.
Quivik: And your father's name?
Harris: Edwin James Harris.
Quivik: And approximately when did your mother and father meet, and when were they
married?
Harris: Before World War I in San Bernardino. Although she had a good education, high
school in those days, she didn't have any training. I think my dad met her when she was
working in the Harvey House. You ever heard of that?
Quivik: Is that a restaurant?
Harris: A restaurant chain, and they were located in the depots, particularly at the division
points. Fred Harvey also —
[Begin Tape l.SideB]
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik
Harris:
Quivik:
You had just said that Fred Harvey also owned a chain of hotels and one was on the rim
of the Grand Canyon. Was you mother working at one of the Fred Harvey restaurants at
the division point in San Bernardino? And that's where your father and your mother
met?
Yes. As I mentioned, my folks who live along the Santa Fe, and then in Needles, which
was a day or two away from Los Angeles, because the trains didn't go too fast, and they
were always having to stop and load up with water. And the man who I mentioned who
became head of the Santa Fe west of Albuquerque, Pacific Coast lines, they were all out
in Needles. This colored friend of ours lived there. You couldn't do too much
discriminating when you lived out in a place like Needles, or you'd be talking to
yourself. This colored man was a colored Mason. They had a different grand lodge.
He spoke to Mr. Wall and said that I was very intelligent and that I needed the chance
for education, so they hired my dad.
This colored gentleman was very interesting. The first four years of his life he was
property. Because he's black he can never be a foreman, but he was the top of the non-
foreman category.
In what kind of work?
I forgot what he did, but he was working in the railroad yards.
So when your family bought the new house, that was with money that your mother still
had from her inheritance?
Yes.
And was your father without work then?
When he left the Colton cement plant, he got a job with Parker Ice Machine Company.
They made commercial refrigeration units. They had a complete setup—a foundry—and
my dad worked in the foundry. The foreman at the foundry asked my mother if she
wouldn't send we children to the Baptist church where he went. My mother was so
happy my dad had a job, she reluctantly said yes. My dad and mother agreed that they
wouldn't bother with religion. When we were adults, we could make up our own minds.
They didn't want to fight over religion.
Had your mother grown up in the church?
Yes, Dutch Reform. But there were no Dutch Reform churches in San Bernardino or in
the area, so there was nothing she could go to.
Now, you've mentioned your older brother. Did you have other siblings?
Two sisters by my dad.
And were they younger than you?
Harris: Oh yes.
Quivik: What are their names?
Harris: Nellie, 1916. In 1919, my Aunt Etta had come up from Compton to our house. Then
one day we were put outside and were just told we had to play outside, and we didn't
know why we were run out of the house. My Aunt Etta came out and told us we could
come in, and says, "You now have a new baby sister." [laughter]
Quivik: And what was her name?
Harris: Marjorie, and she was my dad's favorite. So Nellie and I, we didn't dare punch or hit
Marjorie or we would get it. My mother, she bought a new car, a Chevrolet, in 1923.
She had one driving lesson. They drove her up to Verde Mount and back, and the
salesman handed her the keys. She did all the driving. My dad never learned to drive.
The cars were a story.
Quivik: You say the cars were a story. What's the story?
Harris: Oh, I've forgotten why they needed another car, and they bought a secondhand
Chevrolet, a '26. My dad overhauled it. Anything he touched was better off being half-
broken when he got through fixing it. [laughter] He didn't get a proper gasket, head
gasket, so the radiator water leaked into the cylinders. And my mother had a douche
rubber bulb, and I would take out the spark plugs and suck out the water to get the car
going. Finally when we came home we drained the radiator. In '36 she bought a new
Chevrolet, factory delivery. In '36, my dad's railroad pass qualification enabled him to
get passes for us to go to New York City. That's when I met my Uncle Will.
Quivik: By then was your dad back working with the railroad?
Harris: Yes, he went to work in 1930. No paid holidays. And Christmas and New Year— they
worked two days a week~and Christmas and New Years came on Tuesday, so for half a
month he only had two days pay. Between '29, the depression ruined the business and
the ice machine company went broke. At one point, before he got back to the Santa Fe
and before he got back to the ice machine company, one Thanksgiving we had no
money and no food. Someone had given our names to the Salvation Army and the
Salvation Army came and had a big basket. So we had Thanksgiving.
Quivik: Now, you said that the foreman at the ice company invited the children in your family to
the Baptist church. What kind of things did you do there?
Harris: They were always after me to come to Jesus and get baptized. I didn't like being
hassled, so after a few years I stopped going.
Quivik: Was that mainly to worship services they were inviting you to, or to other kinds of
events?
Harris: Yes, yes. Then they had Bible-it wasn't Bible study—it was a summer program. I
remember the pastor was telling we youngsters that when we ate we also took a life. He
was emphasizing the loss of life of Jesus. And he said, "When you eat an egg you are
taking the life of a chick. What is it Guy?" I said, "You're not taking a life, the egg isn't
fertile." And he got angry and I had to sit with the kids who were shooting spitwads, and
that helped sour me on going. When we moved back to the F Street School, I did okay
in the second grade. In the third grade I goofed off and they flunked me in the 3B.
They had 3A, 3B then.
So when school started, I wasn't going back in the classroom with little kids, so I just
goofed off, bribed my sister not to squeal on me. Old Lady Harris, the principal, she
caught me, and I remember her office in the center of F Street School. She had a roll-
top desk and she played a game of psychology, she let you sweat. So finally she
motions to come over and she pulled out a drawer and she got her little strap out and she
says, "Guy, see how red that is. I can make part of you just as red." [laughter] I knew
what part she was talking about. She wanted to know why I wasn't going to class. And
I said I wasn't going back to those little kids. So she gave me some tests and said, "All
right, you can go start back in the fourth grade, but any trouble you're going back to
those little kids. Any trouble. Back to those little kids." I was never aggressive, and I
was one of the kids beat up, but my dad didn't have a gun, so I didn't shoot anybody. I
empathize with that kid down in San Diego. They shouldn't be allowed to get away
with it at school, because you have to go to school. My grandson went to the church
school and they were taking his stuff and throwing it around and hassling him.
Quivik: Were you hassled?
Harris: Oh, yes. We lived over on the wrong side of the tracks. Next street over were the
blacks, and a couple blocks beyond were the Mexicans. I felt very inferior and I wanted
recognition, so I joined the Boy Scouts. I ended up with sixty-two merit badges, Eagle
Scout and also the Sea Scouts, their top award. I was really crushed, one of the boys in
our troup—were you ever a scout?
Quivik: Yes.
Harris: So this kid got his picture in the paper, all this recognition, and he'd just started
scouting. And when I got my Eagle, it was just there along with the first class merit
badges and so on. No recognition, not even for Eagle. Then when I got quartermaster,
first one in the county—Sea Scouts—no recognition. So when I got my Ph.D. I thought,
ha, ha.
Quivik: Why do you think that was that you got no recognition?
Harris: My dad was just a laborer for the railroad. The boy, the star scout that got his picture in
the paper, his father was dentist. Money. The scout executive, he was a crook. He had
his daughter on as secretary. He paid her $125 a month, and a good starting salary for a
chemist then was $130. Ph.D. chemists were making $150-$175, he was making $225-
-a scout executive. He stacked the deck in his favor, because the people that were
supposed to hire and supervise and control the executive, he appointed people who were
just too busy. He got someone that he knew wouldn't have time to be involved but
would be happy for the prestige of being on this committee or that committee.
My first job was with Shell Development. They had big laboratories set up in
Emeryville. The left-wing CIO union got in, organized the technicians, several of the
chemists tried to organize the chemists. Shell never did like unions, and particularly in
the research. Eventually they just shut Emeryville down and moved the people they
wanted. No technician got transferred, and any chemist who was pro-union never got
transferred. So I worked there a year, saved everything I could and went down to
Stanford.
Quivik: Well, let's start talking about your education. Before we get to Stanford, let's go back.
You went to high school in San Bernardino?
Harris: Yes. With my high school grades, there was no decent four-year school that would
have taken me.
Quivik: What distracted you from studying in high school?
Harris: Oh, I couldn't be bothered. Graduated in 1932, and there were no jobs. Fortunately,
there were no jobs, because if could have gone and worked for the railroad, I would
have gone and worked for the railroad and never been really that thrilled. So my mother
said, "You're not going to sit on your derriere, you go over to the junior college and I'll
buy the books." No tuition.
Quivik: What was the name of the junior college?
Harris: San Bernardino Valley Union Junior College, and it's now called just Valley College.
Well, the president of the school had everyone take a set of tests. One battery was
seeing what you've learned, and another battery was to see what mental equipment you
had. So he brought it out and he said, "I can't advise you on anything, because these
scores show that anything you went into you would succeed." And he called the dean of
women over and he said, "Look at these fantastic scores!" [laughter] Well, I'm just
saying what they said. So he asked her to get my transcript, and when she brought it
over and he laid it down he said, "There must be a mistake here." And I said, "No." And
he said, "With this-that's the best you could do? You should be ashamed of yourself."
So I worked a little harder. I had to go three years because no chemistry in high school,
no trigonometry, and Chem 1 A was required and I didn't have any background to go
into it.
Quivik: By that time, did you think you were interested in going into chemistry?
Harris: Oh, yes. I loved chemistry. I could get good grades without having to work too hard,
[laughter] So when I got to Berkeley--
Quivik: How did you get to Berkeley? How did you make the jump from San Bernardino
community college to Berkeley?
Harris: I sent my transcript and a group of us came up in Ed Cunningham's old Dodge sedan. I
remember one o'clock in the morning in Bakersfield, it was 93 degrees, and I thought,
"How do they get anyone to live in this place?" Because San Bernardino would get hot
in the summer, but nothing quite as bad as that. We came up to Berkeley and they had
transferred 70 credits, and I remember Porter said, "Well, you didn't have organic
chemistry," so he raised it from 120 to 130, the number of units I'd have to meet.
10
I said, "Oh, that will be no problem, because they gave me credit for 70." He said,
"What? I'm raising it again." I said, "Now, just a minute, Dr. Porter. The catalogue
says 120, then you raise it to 130, now you want to raise it to 140. How do I know that
a couple of years from now it won't 170?" He said, "All right, 130." [laughter]
Quivik: Who was Dr. Porter?
Harris: He was one of the chem. profs, here at Berkeley. Well, I kind of goofed off. A's, B's,
and D's. If I didn't give a hoot about the course, the A's would cover the grade points. I
was living in a five-story old frame place behind the woman's club— it's just a parking
lot now. In my junior year, still my first year here, I got interested in a graduate student.
I thought, "What brass, what gall, chasing a graduate student." [chuckles] You met her.
She had come over here to get her general secondary credential.
Quivik: You should tell us who she is.
Harris: Elsie Dietsch. Elsie Harris. She wasn't particularly interested in my pursuing her,
[laughter] but she changed her mind. I remember I was taking the life-saving class,
swimming life-saving, in gym. We had a party and she came, and I can still see her
there with her bathing cap on. When I was convinced that she was interested in me—my
last semester here— I made more grade points than the previous three. I got the job at
Shell. After a year, I'd saved most of the money and I went down to Stanford.
Quivik: Where was Elsie from?
Harris: San Francisco State. It was a college then, and now San Francisco State University.
She majored in English and Social Studies.
Quivik: And how long was your courtship?
Harris: Until I passed all exams at Stanford and I had enough money that we could afford to get
married.
Quivik: So you weren't married during your graduate education?
Harris: No.
Quivik: Were you continuously courting during that period?
Harris: Oh, yes.
Quivik: What was Elsie doing?
Harris: Teaching.
Quivik: Where?
Harris: San Francisco schools. She was teaching high school, elementary, her general
secondary she could have taught in junior college if they had one. She couldn't get on
11
permanently, because a teaching job, permanent jobs were for men, because the men
had a family.
Quivik: So you worked at Shell for a year and saved your money and went to Stanford. When
you graduated from the University of California here, had that been your goal all along,
to go to graduate school?
Harris: No, I figured I'd better one-up Elsie. The year I was with Shell, a friend of mine was
going in physics at Stanford. We went to grammar, junior high, high, junior college.
Then he went to Stanford —
[Begin Tape 2, Tape A]
Quivik: You were talking about your friend who was describing the language tests. What was
your friend's name?
Harris: Keith Harworth.
Quivik: And he was saying about the language exams?
Harris: He said, "Van Leisselberg is gone for the summer," so I started translating French
articles from French chemical journals. When I felt it was worth a try I went down, I
wasn't even a student there—and I took the French exam and passed it, so I escaped Van
Leisselberg. But he got his revenge later on. When I completed my master's and the
prof. I wanted to work under was back at Harvard for a year—
Quivik: Who was that?
Harris: Knoller. His textbooks were very popular.
Quivik: In which field?
Harris: Organic chemistry. When he came back I'd completed my year with Bergstrom, and I
switched back to Knoller. Bergstrom was a bachelor, and-you'll laugh-there was one
student named Durstine. He was a super Catholic. He wasn't very popular with any of
us. He'd done some stunts on me, so I thought I'd try to water bag him, but missed. So
I took a calcium chlorine can about almost a foot in diameter and a little over a foot
high. The old chem. building was about as ancient as the old F Street School, and they
had a sill that was about six, seven inches on the top. So I drove a nail in the door and in
the sill and put a cord around the base of the can and the loop on the other end of the
cord. I'd opened the door, wedged it and said, "The water should come down now!" So
I made the loop and put it over the nail. The sill was just going to hold the can but the
tipping thing was that nail on the door.
So I had everything ready and I waited until my prof, wouldn't be in. He didn't approve
of shenanigans. So Durstine went down to get some stuff, and I have the can full of
water and set it up and very gently went through the door, the opening gap, and waited.
Because if my prof, should have inadvertently showed up, I was going to go through the
door and take the water, because he would never blame me for doing it to myself,
[laughter] But the other prof, the bachelor, came up, and I said, "Please wait, Dr.
12
Bergstrom, please wait." "Why?" he says, "I want to go and talk to my students." I
said, "Please wait." "Okay."
And Durstine came in through the door and down came the can, the water, and when the
water hit him he reflexively shot his arms out, and the door pulled the can off, and the
can came down and hit him. And the prof, said, "Gee, that was worth waiting for."
Now, my prof, would not have approved of it, but Bergstrom, he was a nice guy.
Quivik: What had you studied under Bergstrom?
Harris: Heterocyclic analogs of sulfanilamide. That was the in class of antibiotics,
sulfanamides.
Quivik: Sulfa drugs?
Harris: Yes, sulfa drugs.
Quivik: While you were at Stanford, do you remember a man named R.E. Swain?
Harris: Swain?
Quivik: Yes. What do you remember about him?
Harris: We had, I forgot the nickname now, but we had an uncomplimentary nickname for him.
There was a student who got his master's at the same time as I did, also under
Bergstrom. He had graduated from college when he was seventeen and he got a write-
up in Time magazine. He said, "Oh the professors nowadays, they don't know how to
write." So there were some profs, who read that article, and they weren't thrilled. His
thesis, master's, was a big thick thing, and we had a Chinese fellow who got his
bachelor's in the University of Canton and his Ph.D. at the University of Heidelberg.
And he said, "Did you see that? Friedberg's thesis? It reads like, what do you call, a
funny book, a comic book." Well, poor Bergstrom, signed and approved it. The faculty,
not just him, broad context faculty, disapproved it. He had to rewrite it and get it
rebound. We had been invited over for Edgar's birthday—
Quivik: Edgar who?
Harris: Friedberg, this Jewish student. I had never been to a place where they have servants and
they waited on you, but it was a nice dinner for his birthday. Well Mama, the Jewish
mother, disapproved of the way they treated her son. So she came, went in to see Swain
and expressed her strong disapproval. Stinky, we called him, Swain. Swain was
listening to her and she said, "And if I can't be assured that this sort of thing will never
happen again, I will take my son out of your department." And Swain said, "I believe
that can be arranged, Mrs. Friedberg." And she stormed out. They drove up in a big
limousine, chauffeur driven. Mama came in first, Daddy followed. When she stormed
out, Papa followed her out, and they got in the car and they drove off. He went on and
moved over to the education department.
Quivik: Do you remember why Swain had the nickname of Stinky?
13
Harris: He was never real popular with the students. He was always after me. I only had six
units of German. He was always after me to sign up for German classes, because I was
a teaching assistant and I just paid by the unit. He wanted to increase the number of
units more. Oh, and lower classes often drew premium tuition. He was after the
money. I kept stalling. Finally, he did the counseling, he said, "Well, Mr. Harris, you
put off taking that German class just long enough." I said, "Why do I have to take it?"
He said, "Well, you have to pass the language requirement." I said, "Well, I already
passed it." [laughter]
Quivik: The French?
Harris: The German.
Quivik: The German as well?
Harris: Yes. So I saved myself some money.
Quivik: Was Swain the head of the entire chemistry department?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Do you recall, was he responsible for raising money to enhance the research facilities
there at Stanford?
Harris: I don't remember. I know that he was a consultant about the smelter fumes that went
from Montana over into Canada in the big international thing. He was the consultant.
Quivik: Trail, British Columbia?
Harris: Yes. Oh, you remember better than I do. [laughter]
Quivik: Did he have students helping him with that case?
Harris: I don't know. That was before I went there.
Quivik: And Knoller, what do you remember about him?
Harris: [mimics Knoller yelling out] "Harris! I want to see you in my office!" When I finished
my master's, I had a teaching assistantship, both winter and spring quarter. Fall quarter
I had enough money for the tuition, but then I wouldn't have money for room rent or
food. So I applied for a tuition loan, and the man called me and we had to fill out a form
what our living expenses was. He said, "I want an honest one." I could have spit on
him. He said no one can live as cheaply. I was. But his folks probably had money. He
never had to scrounge. I was so mad I went and paid the tuition. And this thing worked
out. Knoller called me in his office. He said, "Harris, it's all right for graduate students
to correct undergraduate classes, but not graduate classes." And he said, "You know I'm
on two or three committees this quarter, and I just won't have time to correct the
graduate organic. You will correct." I had the money~I was able to pay my rent,
[laughter] And then I was teaching assistant one term working for Bergstrom and
another for Knoller.
14
Quivik: Did you work during the summers away from the university, or did you work at the
university, and were you able to earn an income during the summer?
Harris: No, I had my master's and I had enough money to carry me through the summer, but
then the fall term that was a big problem. For the last year I had a research assistantship
and also got a scholarship. After the first year we had to take a battery of tests, and Van
Leisselberg had the physical chemistry. I made a 96 on mine and he gave me a B. He
got his revenge, [laughter] inadvertently. Then we had to minor in something, and I
minored in physics. I had taken several classes, physics classes at Stanford, and one of
the classes, thermodynamics, was taught by Felix Block, who got a Nobel prize. He
passed me in the hall, a total stranger. The physics department, a quarter or two before
I was ready, started giving three half-hour oral sessions, two profs., two and two. So an
hour and a half. Half of it the main three-hour university oral. They were flunking two-
thirds to three-quarters of all the ones taking it. One math instructor flunked four times
and they told him, don't come back. Math instructor!
And here I was, an organic chemist venturing in there with all the math that you get in
physics. My friend had tipped me off about a lot of the trick questions. Five of the guys
wanted to okay me, and a fellow from Switzerland wouldn't budge. So I was one of the
majority. Next quarter, he wasn't there. I passed. I was one of the minority who
passed. One fellow from physical chemistry, they flunked him. So I felt pretty good.
Quivik: Was this your friend from San Bernardino that tipped you off on the trick questions?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Do you remember the name of the Swiss professor?
Harris: Not at the moment.
Quivik: What was the topic of your dissertation?
Harris: Which one?
Quivik: For your Ph.D.
Harris: The interrelationship between kaio-cystic acid to other tri-terpenoids. Tri-terpenoids
are a group of C30 pentocycline compounds obtained from plant sources. The si-kaio-
cystic acid was obtained from a kaio-cystis wild cucumber vine that grows along the
coast. I did okay. Publications were scarce in those days, not like today. The Phi Beta
Kappa that worked next to me had one paper, I had three. The prof., Knoller, called me
in his office and he said, "I want this, this, this, this. When you're done you can start
writing your thesis." Because I was leaving soon. "By the way, you can continue to
goof off the way you have been and be here a couple more years." [laughter] Six weeks,
I had it all done. If he had known how fast I would get it done, he would have given me
a longer list.
Quivik: Now, was your thesis project part of a larger research project that Knoller was engaged
in?
15
Harris: Oh yes.
Quivik: What was his overall project, what was he working on?
Harris: Trying to interrelate-the tri-terpenoids are different groups, and he was trying to relate
the kaio-cystic acids to beta-ameron which he felt had the same structure except
functional group difference.
Quivik: And was his work, and by extension your work, being done to advance the theoretical
knowledge of tri-terpenoids, or was there an application for this work?
Harris: No, no application. Yes, there was an application. I asked him what the utility of it.
"Oh, it's a good project to train Ph.D.'s." [laughter] Quote. The three-hour oral, your
name went on the bulletin board all around the campus. Any prof, could come in and
ask you anything. English, foreign language, whatever. But they didn't because if they
started doing that, Knoller and Bergstrom would show up at theirs and flunk theirs. So
the one man to represent the physics department was the Swiss. God, I wanted to walk
out, but Knoller is a lot like [Douglas] Fuerstenau, and you just don't do that. I held my
own with him until the last.
The chairman was from the English department. He said, "Well, you have a hole
through there and it goes through the other side and you drop a ball. What happens?" I
said, "It goes down almost to the other side and comes back and oscillates back and
forth and comes to rest at the center." "Yah, yah, write zer differential equations for the
motion." I said, "Well, do the gravitational one, that's easiest." He said, "It's like the
charge on a sphere." I said, "The charge is on the surface, it seems like it is in the
center." I was so shook, I couldn't even think, [imitating another person:] "The physics
department time is up!"
Quivik: And who said that?
Harris: The fellow from the English department. The man from the biochem department was
asking me a question on stero chemistry and I answered him. I knew the answer. But
apparently I didn't make it clear enough to him, so he led me though. I thought, "Oh
well, this is going to use up a lot of the time, and maybe someone else's nasty question,
there won't be time for it." And Knoller, he would always have his students come in
after they had completed that, and God help you if you didn't pass. He said, "Well, you
passed, but I noticed you had a little trouble with Loring's question on stero chemistry."
He said, "I guess you didn't take my class." And I said, "Oh, I took your class," and he
said, "Well, what did you get?" And I said, "An A." He said, "[growl sound]."
[laughter]
The last year I passed that oral, so all I did was write a thesis. I knew that as far as a
Ph.D. was concerned I had it made, because there were a few guys that didn't pass their
main oral and had to take it over a again.
Quivik: What year did you finish your Ph.D. then?
Harris: Nineteen forty-one.
16
Quivik: Early or late?
Harris: The summer.
Quivik: And the oral was earlier in '4 1 ?
Harris: Yes, yes. We, Elsie and I, rented some small rooms and a large bedroom surrounding
the car garage, and we had Bergstrom over for dinner.
Quivik: Were you married by then?
Harris: Yes, yes.
Quivik: When did you get married?
Harris: Nineteen forty-one.
Quivik: What month?
Harris: I think March.
Quivik: So does that mean you are about to celebrate your sixtieth anniversary?
Harris: We did.
Quivik: When?
Harris: Last April.
Quivik: Aha. So that would be married in—
Harris: Sixty?
Quivik: Yes.
Harris: Sixty from 1940.
Quivik: You were married in 1940, okay, a year before you finished your Ph.D.?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And where were you living when you finished? Palo Alto?
Harris: Menlo Park. That was lucky, because if I'd been in the Palo Alto draft board, I might
have been drafted, but I had a teaching job, Mercy College. It was a school set up,
licensed by the state, run by the Sisters of Mercy, and the only students they took were
their nuns.
Quivik: Was that in Menlo Park?
17
Harris: In Burlingame. It paid good money. Twice what I was making as a research assistant.
The landlady knew that I had my master's, and her daughter who became a nun had
gone to Mercy High School. She knew they were looking for someone to teach a class,
a chemistry class for the nuns. In those days, if you weren't completely through, what
do you call novitiate, in transit, you couldn't go out in public to school. So they had to
run their own program.
Quivik: There were nuns who were training to teach at parochial schools?
Harris: Nurses. A couple of them had their R.N. but they wanted them to get their bachelor of
science.
Quivik: And were you teaching at Mercy College?
Harris: Mercy College, but the class was held at their-
18
19
[Interview 2: June 7, 2001] [Begin Tape 3, Side A]
Quivik: This is Fred Quivik, and I'm interviewing Guy Harris for the Regional Oral History
Office at the Bancroft Library. We're in the press room at the Bancroft Library. It's
June?, 2001. Good morning, Guy.
Harris: Good morning, Fredric.
Quivik: We're continuing with your discussion of your teaching at Mercy College. When we
left off last time, you were talking about how they wanted to be able to train the nuns
inside Mercy College before they took their vows, and before they sent them out in the
world to be teachers.
Harris: R.N.'s.
Quivik: That's right, R.N.'s, nurses. Can you describe a little bit about the teaching environment
at Mercy College?
Harris: I think I mentioned, the first day they all stood up. I thought, "Gosh the mother superior
is coming." I looked behind me, and no one was there, and they were laughing and said,
"Good afternoon, Mr. Harris." Every day I would come in, and class would start, and
they would all stand up for me. The only time I've had any classes do that for me! They
had lab equipment from the high school there. The equipment was quite adequate.
There were two units organic, two units inorganic, and two units of biochem. I had
never had a biochem class in my life, but I can read the textbook and keep ahead of the
women.
Quivik: How many students did you have in your class?
Harris: Five, I was telling you there were two left, and now there's one.
Quivik: So you kept in touch with those nuns over the years?
Harris: Sister Alice, I got reacquainted with her when my wife was over at St. Mary's hospital,
for a hip replacement. I was telling one of the nuns that I used to "work for you gals."
She said, [high-pitched imitation] "Here?" I said, "No, down in Birmingham." She
wanted to know what I was doing, and I told her. She said, "Sister Alice is still here,
she's on the staff." That's how I got to get reacquainted with Sister Alice. When we're
having lunch, she'll motion for somebody to come over and say, "This is my professor,"
and I say, "Yes, in 1941." She said, "He was a fantastic teacher. In high school I only
got a D in Chemistry." I said, "Well, Alice got an A minus in Chemistry, and I don't
grade easy." She mentioned to me, a month or two back, that Sister Mary Bartholemew
had passed on.
Quivik: Sister Mary was another one of your students?
Harris: Yes.
20
Quivik: Did St. Mary's College offer a full slate of courses that were preparation for nursing
training?
Harris: I don't know what they did. I was married then, so it was safe to have a man. [laughter]
Quivik: Did you know any of the other faculty, or did you just go in and teach your class?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Do you happen to know where they did their nursing training?
Harris: Most of it what was probably done at USF.
Quivik: So you only taught at Mercy College that one year?
Harris: One semester.
Quivik: One semester, so you taught those three courses.
Harris: The class consisted of those units, two, and two, and two. I think I mentioned that I ran
out of money. I had just enough money to pay my tuition at Stanford, but not enough to
eat or get a room. My professor called me in, and said that he was going to be awfully
busy that quarter. He had to be on some committees. He mentioned that he didn't
believe in graduate students correcting papers for graduate courses. He said he was
going to be busy, and that I would correct the papers for the graduate organic chemistry
class.
I had applied for a tuition loan. We had to fill out a form, and I turned my form in. The
guy called me in and said, "No one can live so cheaply, I want an honest evaluation of
your expenses." I was so mad, I figured he was just a—. My dad was on the bottom
rung, and this fellow, no doubt, had a middle class father. I was living that cheaply, and
he couldn't have because he lived too high on the hog.
I was serious, so I took all my money and paid the tuition. I didn't know how I was
going to get by, but when Professor Knoller called me in and said I would correct
papers, I'd be able to pay my rent. I did have a teaching assistantship the winter and
spring term. And lastly, I had a research assistantship so my last quarter I had a
scholarship that paid the tuition.
Quivik: Last time we talked about you and Elsie being married in 1 940, and then you finished
up your thesis in 1941. Then you were ready to go to work outside the university?
Harris: Yes, the American Chemical Society had an employment clearinghouse at their
meeting, so I went back to Atlantic City at an ACS meeting and I paid my way. Things
are different today, much better for the students. I took the train back, and a Jewish
friend of mine and I went bathing in the surf at Atlantic City the last day we were there.
He asked me how many interviews I got, and it was either six or seven and he said, "Oh,
you did pretty well." He had talked to a guy who got ten or eleven, but he said "You did
pretty well when they consider that you're a 'whiff.'" And I said, "What?" He said
21
"Whiff." I said, "But I'm not Jewish," and he said, "I know it, you know it, but they
don't."
A lot of Jews had the name Harris, and they looked at the picture so they wouldn't give
interviews to blacks. I stated that I was Protestant. I wasn't, but in those days if you
weren't a Jew or a Catholic, you were a Protestant! [laughter] No matter if you never
went to church! He said, "They think that you are Jewish, and they think 'Another kike'
and turn the page over." But I did get a job in Cincinnati. My wife had enough money,
and we bought a new car and loaded it up. Alice was in the back seat on top of all of the
things we were taking with us.
Quivik: You better tell us who Alice is.
Harris: Alice is the first of my four children. We drove down, and I wanted to say goodbye to
my parents and some of my friends that had been kind to me. We drove on to Needles.
The old highway went up through the hills and came down a real twisty roadway.
There was a little town there, and I was so tired that we stopped. Fortunately we did,
because further on the next morning we could see a lot of auto wrecks, where people
had gone off the road because it was so tortuous. We went on to Amarillo, Texas. The
roads had been flooded over. We went out to see a friend in Bartlettsville, and one of
the rivers had overflowed and probably all the rivers in that area overflowed. We came
through Illinois and Indiana, and on to Cincinnati.
Quivik: What time of year was this?
Harris: October.
Quivik: Of 1941?
Harris: Yes, just before Pearl Harbor.
Quivik: Do you remember what kind of car you bought?
Harris: It was a Mercury.
Quivik: Who did you get a job with in Cincinnati?
Harris: William S. Merrill Co., founded 1 829.
Quivik: And what did William S. Merrill Co. do?
Harris: Pharmaceuticals. They were eventually bought out by Dow. Dow sold them off, along
with the rest of their pharmaceutical ventures, off to the Germans.
Back to my research work at Stanford, I got three publications out of my research work,
which was rare in those days. Now, they publish—. All you have to do is look at back
in 1940. Chem Abstracts didn't take a lot of space on the shelf. Now just one year fills
a shelf. And I got a couple of papers out of the work at Merrill.
22
Quivik: These were in addition to the papers that you got out of your Stanford research. Did
Merrill encourage its employees to publish?
Harris: Only after the patent is issued. My first patent came at Dow.
Quivik: What were you doing at Merrill?
Harris: Synthesis work with drugs. I synthesized 155 germicides. Peridinium, alcium,
peridinium nalides, perpediniums. They wanted that work done, and it wasn't
considered really essential as far as the war effort was concerned. I was a pre-Pearl
Harbor father, so they unloaded all that on me. They wanted it done, but they didn't
want to have any of their people drafted. They knew I was safe from the draft.
Quivik: What made you safe from the draft?
Harris: Pre-Pearl Harbor father.
Quivik: That was the key?
Harris: Also, I registered in Menlo Park, and they didn't have a lot of college graduates on their
availability list. Whereas if I had been in Palo Alto, I would have been one of many
highly eligible draftees.
Quivik: Let's go back for just a bit to the work that you did between your being at UC and
Stanford. What kind of work did you do at Shell?
Harris: Did I mention the fact that of the eighty-six graduates from the College of Chemistry,
only a dozen got jobs or went on to graduate work?
Quivik: No.
Harris: I was fortunate to get a job with Shell. I worked in their analytical lab.
Quivik: Where was that located?
Harris: Emeryville. They had a problem with the Communist union that had organized the
technicians, and several of the chemists signed up for that union. I didn't, I had always
been on the conservative side.
Quivik: Do you remember the name of the union?
Harris: No, the leaders were Marxist and that's all I can remember.
Quivik: What was the analytical lab working on? What part of Shell's operation was this?
Harris: They had a big research center there. Even at Dow, I did my work, had it done in the
analytical department.
Quivik: And that's what you were doing at Shell, working in the analytical department?
23
Harris: Yes, we were distilling hydrocarbon fractions at atmospheric pressure. We used liquid
air to condense the gases and keep the material in the distillation column in the liquid
phase. We got the liquid oxygen from the Shell plant in West Pittsburg. We pressed
something, and it would squirt the liquid oxygen through the head of the column. That
way, we would keep the material in the column in the liquid phase.
Quivik: Was this all analytical work being done for Shell's plant in West Pittsburg?
Harris: No, Shell Research, Shell Development it was called.
Quivik: Do you remember what kinds of things Shell was trying to develop there?
Harris: They developed a lot of good processes. One of the comments the Shell people made
was that you sure could tell when a Shell patent expired, because the next day Dow
would cut the ribbon on their new plant. They wouldn't have to pay any royalties
because the patent expired.
Quivik: Can you tell me what kind of industry this was? Was it strictly related to oil products?
Harris: Well, take for example, al-chloride is not a product that you get out of crude oil. It has
to be synthesized. They got it by chlorination of propylene. The propylene came from
the crude oil.
Quivik: What were these synthesized products being used for in the 1930s?
Harris: For one thing, insecticides, and today they're interested in polymers.
Quivik: Back to Merrill, you worked at Merrill for how long?
Harris: Three and a half years.
Quivik: Where did you live when you were in Cincinnati?
Harris: In an apartment in Cincinnati. I was a prankster, do you want to hear about that?
Quivik: Yes.
Harris: Bill Corbett, the librarian hated Bill Corbett. Because of the war, rubber was at a
premium. So you would use Tygon tubing, and you would run water through a column
you'd use a short section of rubber and then Tygon and then a short section connecting
to the condenser. This Tygon was yellowish. You would cut off a piece, and then when
you trimmed it for the rubber you would often end up with a crescent-shaped little
piece. I made several of those little pieces and put them on the librarian's desk. She was
poking at them on her desk and asked, "What's going on here?" I didn't say they were
nail trimmings, but I said that Corbett was trimming his nails. "OUT! Dr. Harris, OUT
And don't come back!" I had to use the library an hour or so later, and I came in. "OUT,
OUT!" And I said, "Helen, please, just give me a minute, will you?" I took a piece of
Tygon and cut it off, and she said, "Dr. Harris, you're impossible!"
Quivik: This was the library at Merrill?
24
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Yes. Another story. I bought some life insurance, because I thought my wife needed
some protection. I told my friend, "Hey, you ought to get some life insurance." "Oh
no..." And I said, "I'll send the agent to your house." He said, "You wouldn't dare." So
I had a phoney-baloney conversation on the phone with an insurance agent. I even had
one of my co-workers, farther down the ladder, make calls, pretending to be a life
insurance agent, like with New York Life. The next day my friend told me he had been
out the night before, so I volunteered to send another agent by his house. He said,
"Harris, you're an old bastard!" [laughter]
I had to get used to driving in the snow. We also had a victory garden.
Did you work in the garden, or was that mainly Elsie's work?
Both.
What kinds of things did you like to grow?
Oh, tomatoes and string beans. The usual things.
You described how you were able to stay out of the draft and your victory garden. Can
you think of some ways that the war changed the way work was being done at Merrill?
Yes, we were making atropin, that's a yellow-colored anti-malarial. We manufactured
that, did quality control, and so on. If someone was really having a problem with the
draft, we had them work on the anti-malarial so that they could make a big ado about
the anti-malarial. They had to have something to protect the soldiers from malaria.
So working on anti-malarial drugs was considered an essential job for domestic
industry?
On one of my trips back to Cincinnati--. My boss had a sense of humor, too. [laughter]
He introduced me to a new Ph.D. they had hired. Her job was to do literature work and
write reports. He introduced me to her and she asked my real name. I said, "Guy
Harris." She said, "No, that's just another one of Van Kampen's jokes." So I got out my
driver's license and she said, "My God, you're real!" So then I began to wonder what
Van Kampen had said about me. Were the stories true? Or were there embellishments?
I couldn't complain, because I had been guilty of that, myself.
What year was that you took that trip to Cincinnati?
It was in '55 or '56.
1945 was when your employment at Merrill ended. What happened next, and how did
it come to pass?
I ended up working for Padco. They had a plant down in Emeryville that manufactured
roofing, flooring, and paints. They had a subsidiary that did work, called Plant Rubber
and Asbestos.
Quivik: Why did you leave Merrill?
25
Harris: Oh, my wife, and her mother had come to live with us, always complained about the
weather. I got so fed-up with their complaints, I decided to come back out to California.
I liked the work there at Merrill. But, as I say, I just got fed up with their complaints
about the weather.
Quivik: How did you find the job at Padco?
Harris: Through an interview. I was there for one year and five months. After one year, all of
the technical people who didn't belong to the union had to join. The union said that they
would shut the plant down. After five months being in the union, I ended up at Dow.
Quivik: Was it difficult to change jobs during the war, when you went from Merrill to Padco?
Harris: Things had gotten easy. I had applied for a commission in the navy, and they weren't
interested in my Ph.D., they were interested in my equivalent of a bachelor's degree in
physics. They wanted people to look after radar equipment.
Quivik: Did you quit Merrill before you went to Padco, or were you hired before you quit
Merrill?
Harris: I had the job and then I came out. I quit Merrill later.
Quivik: Was it while you were working at Merrill that you applied for the Navy commission.
Harris: Yes, but my eyesight was just a little shy.
Quivik: What kind of work did you do at Padco?
Harris: Oh, making new products in flooring. Dow had a new flotation reagent. Cornelius
Keller, inventor of xanthates, that's flotation reagents, had the patent and licensed it to
Dow. They had problems making it, and at Merrill I had a reputation for being a
troubleshooter in their processing plant. So I think that got me the job at Dow.
In those days, if you applied for a job, they wouldn't hire you unless you had quit or had
the company's consent. You were property. I didn't realize it, but they had asked me,
when they interviewed me at Dow, if I had talked to management at Padco. They
asked, "Do you mind if we do?" and I said, "no," not thinking they would. But they had
to. Now, chemists aren't property, they don't have to get the company's consent or quit.
But back in the forties, yes.
Quivik: Can you describe the products that Padco made?
Harris: They had a variety of paints. We could get a discount, and I had a friend who had done
a lot of work on their paints. I asked if any of their stuff was worth buying, he said that
some of it was. He gave me the code numbers, and I got that. A Santa Fe train-man
lived across from us in Richmond. He rented and painted the house, but the landlord
bought the cheap stuff. But I bought the good stuffbecause I didn't want to re-paint in a
hurry.
Quivik: Both of them were Padco products? The cheap and the good stuff?
26
Harris: Yes. For seven years I drove on Highway 4 through Franklin Canyon to Dow. We
lived in Richmond.
Quivik: Let's finish up with Padco. Did you live in Richmond while you were working at Padco
as well?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: But that was just over a year. They made paints and--?
Harris: -flooring. Linoleum is non-existent now. But in those days, they would get
unsaturated vegetable oils and they would blow air through it. When it got viscous
enough, they'd make flooring out of it. They would add inorganic solids to it, to color
it, to make linoleum.
Quivik: And you said something about asbestos?
Harris: Yes, we also made insulation.
Quivik: For pipes and that sort of stuff? Were you involved with all that?
Harris: No, thank goodness.
Quivik: As a chemist in the mid-forties, were you aware of the health hazards of asbestos?
Were you aware of any kinds of precautions that Padco took when dealing with
asbestos?
Harris: They didn't.
Quivik: So it was later that the awareness of the asbestos hazard came along. What was your
job at Padco?
Harris: I worked on improving linoleum.
Quivik: Again, analytical kind of work. Were you trying to come up with new chemicals for the
production process?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Were you there long enough to have any successes?
Harris: No. They didn't need my ideas, and I wasn't that thrilled working for them because I
like ideas.
Quivik: When you were showing me photos at your house, you showed me a photo of a boiler
explosion at Padco?
Harris: No, that was at Merrill.
Quivik: Do you recall anything noteworthy about that event?
27
Harris: It was probably ether or another highly volatile material with a low boiling point. Just
as in a household, if the natural gas has a leak and builds up to the explosive limit, and
you get a spark, you'll have an explosion.
Quivik: It wasn't an accident that affected you directly?
Harris: No. I did work with ceto-methylol chloride, a germicide that they manufactured there,
had to meet certain specs. One of the specs was the chloride analysis. My friend in
charge of the manufacturing had several batches there. They didn't meet the chloride
specs, but they were effective as germicide. Some assays were low, and some were
high. I got thinking, and I said, "Alan, take this batch, two-thirds of this batch, and re-
crystallize them. When they re-crystallize, the chloride wouldn't change." So he did,
and gosh, it matched the specifications. That led him to mix the right amount in the
batches. He asked, "What's the secret?" So, I finally told him, and he was able to get
rid of most of the stuff there that didn't pass these specifications.
Quivik: That's the kind of "idea" work that you enjoyed at Merrill, that you missed at Padco?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: What became of Padco?
Harris: They never showed any ingenuity. They weren't interested in vinyl tiles. One of the
men poked around a little bit with it. Of course the plant rubber and asbestos section
went down the tube with the cancer scare. Justifiably. And there are all sorts of paint
companies. They just got lost in the shuffle.
Quivik: Now we'll turn our attention to Dow. You described how they had to contact Padco to
let you work for them. Did they seek you out or did you apply there for a job? Were
you looking to change?
Harris: Oh, yes, I wanted a change. I wanted to get out of that union. I wanted to get in with
some more interesting work.
Quivik: Did you feel like the union was cramping your work style at Padco? Or did you just not
like being in a union?
Harris: One of the Ph.D. 's, a chemist, was a Communist. He had a party card. We had to go to
the damn meetings, or we got fined. We had elections for union officers. This
Communist was the only candidate for president. So I talked to one of the non-
Communist fellows and he said, "Well, if I'm nominated and elected, I will serve, but I
won't seek the nomination." That's all I needed. I got all the straight guys to make sure
they were going to show up. I had someone nominate the right fellow, and so at the
union meeting they presented the slate. He was nominated and the Communist guy said
he didn't want to create any disharmony. I said, "You gotta run, you gotta run, we're for
you!" What a fat lie! I think it was 35 to 6 in favor of my man.
Quivik: Was this the same union that had tried to organize at Shell?
Harris: Yes.
28
Quivik: Do you know when in your growing up you recognized that you were a conservative
and not in favor of unions?
Harris: My first vote for president was in 1936 when I was up here going to Cal. I voted for
FDR. The third term I was for Willkie. But Willkie was trying to out-do Roosevelt, so
I ended up voting for Norman Thomas. I felt at least he was honest. The fourth term I
voted for the attorney general of the state of New York.
Quivik: Who was that?
Harris: I don't recall. He ran a second time, and the press had him winning the election and
Truman won. It wasn't Willkie.
Quivik: No, and I can't remember the name. Your family was a railroad family, did your family
have union ties?
Harris: My dad belonged to the union in 1922. The railroads wanted to get rid of the unions,
but they got stuck with them during WW1. There was a nationwide strike, and the
unions lost. My dad didn't have to belong to the union, but he wanted to be a good guy
and did. He had a good job, and he lost it. We had financial problems after that. He
had a couple jobs after that.
Quivik: I'm most interested in the union part of it. Did you grow up being an advocate of unions
as a child?
Harris: Yes, but the union leaders had been bought off by the railroad. I didn't think too much
of them. My brother was a union man, he was a motion picture projectionist. I
remember doing some electric wiring for him. I said, "Well, Barney," that was his
nickname, "this is a union job so you'll have to get a union carpenter," and the union and
electrician would sit there collecting his union pay. I did it for free, and my brother was
happy to get a free job.
Quivik: Were you unhappy with the Padco union because of its leftist leanings, or because it
was a union in general?
Harris: Oh, leftist! I wasn't too happy being in the union but a commie union was just too much.
Quivik: At Dow, there was no union to affiliate with?
Harris: The plant workers were unionized.
Quivik: But not the chemists?
Harris: Not even the lab techs. The gal who washed the glassware belonged to the union.
Quivik: Can you describe the organization of Dow at the time? What division were you in, and
how did that relate to the larger corporation?
Harris: In 1 937, Dow bought out the Great Western Electro-Chemical Company, primarily to
get their patents. Great Western had a process for chlorinating methane and making
29
ethyl chloride, methylene chloride, chloroform, and carbon tet. They had some other
patents for making al-chloride.
[Being Tape 4, Side A]
Quivik: Guy, you named some chemicals for which Great Western had patents for how to
produce them. Could you repeat that list?
Harris: Methyl chloride, methylene chloride, tri-chloro-methane, chloroform, and carbon
tetrachloride. I think they also had done something on processing al-chloride and
ethylene chloride and [sounds like] vanilla-bean chloride. Also Cl, C2, and 3C
hydrocarbons they had worked on chlorinating.
Quivik: At Great Western, did they use electricity in processing those chemicals?
Harris: Yes, they'd take salt solutions and electrolyze them and make them caustic in chlorine.
In the cell house, they also used mercury cells to make potassium hydroxide.
Quivik: Was this a production facility or a test facility?
Harris: Production.
Quivik: Where was that located?
Harris: Pittsburg.
Quivik: Was the entire Great Western operation in one location there?
Harris: They had been making xanthates by an old process. Their xanthates were called "Bear"
brand. When I came, research was developing a process, a good process for making the
xanthates. They also were making an agent called benzamine. It was really amyl
benzyl thiocarbonate. The company that had the xanthate patents,~well, when the
patents expired they just folded up the company. They had research labs in San
Francisco. The name of the company escapes me.
Quivik: Was it Mineral Separation?
Harris: Yes. North America. They made big bucks off their xanthate patents, and Keller felt
that they really short changed him, so he kept this benzamine patent under his hat. He
kept it off his resume until he wasn't working for the Mineral Separation company. He
licensed it to Dow. They would take methane chloride, which was just the solvent or
dispersant, ammonium thiocyanate, benzyl chloride, and a secondary amyl alcohol, and
they thought they were getting di-ethyl carbonol. The company that made amyl alcohol
from the chlorination of pentane, and then saponifying it, ionizing it with caustic soda.
I was working with this reagent. I bought pure di-methyl carbonol from Eastman.
That's pentanol 3, and I got some pure pentanol 2 and I made a reagent. They were
solids. I washed, had water to got rid of the ammonium chloride and then get rid of the
methylene chloride, leaving pure product. Both the pentanol 2 and 3 were solids.
30
Things can be super cool, and you think you have a liquid product. But all it takes is
one crystal, and the whole thing sets up.
But I had pentanol 2 product and 3 product, and each dissolved. So I knew that the stuff
I was buying wasn't pure. At that time infrared spectroscopy had just come in, and they
analyzed my pure stuff and were able to determine that about 2/3 of one of the two
wasn't pure. So I went down and said, "Hey, what the hell, your di-ethyl carbonol isn't
pure." They were hemming and hawing. They were selling the same stuff as mixed
amyl alcohol, or so-called pure stuff! The same stuff! But at almost twice the price. We
got the process really going quite well. But no one had ever taken the trouble to analyze
the cost. So we found out the more we sold, the more money we lost, [laughter]
Quivik: What were you selling? What was the product in that particular instance?
Harris: Secondary amyl benzyl thiocarbonate.
Quivik: What was that chemical used for, who bought that?
Harris: It was a good flotation reagent. Far better than the xanthate. I had made some isopropyl
methyl thiocarbonate, and it was even better than the benzamine. They were losing
money. If they charged enough to make a profit it would have been too expensive, so
they switched over to the Z200, which was, instead of ethylene we used methylene.
That's the reagent that you patented, right? When you first went to work at Dow, were
you working on these reagents?
No, I was involved with the new xanthate process plan. For Dow xanthate process, they
would take powdered cilium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide, and suspended it in
pentane. They chose pentane because you can't get a reaction mixture with a higher
temperature than 36 degrees. They had a condenser to condense the pentane so the heat
of the reaction would be unloaded onto the condensers, and the pentane would carry the
load.
Quivik: Was that 36 degrees Celsius?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: When you say, "the new Dow xanthate process," was this a process that Great Western
had developed? Or was this after Dow acquired Great Western?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Did Great Western have any facilities besides the one in Pittsburg?
Harris: No.
Quivik: Did Dow have any operations in the Bay Area before that?
Harris: No.
Quivik:
Harris:
31
Quivik: So that company became part of Dow, but did it continue to operate with many of the
same managers and so on?
Harris: Yes, our research director was Hirshkind. He got his Ph.D. under Haber, who had
developed the ammonia process.
Quivik: Where?
Harris: Germany.
Quivik: That's where he got his Ph.D.?
Harris: Yes, he was brought up in Germany. He was very reluctant to hire any Jews, because
he didn't want to be accused of being pro- Jewish.
Quivik: Did Dow have a group of chemists working on xanthates already by the time you
arrived?
Harris: Yes, they were doing a good job working on the xanthate process. They were making
the benzimate.
Quivik: Were these all Great Western folks who came with the acquisition?
Harris: Most of them had been hired after Dow took over the plant. It was '37 when Dow took
over, and I went to work in '46.
Quivik: So you entered a team that had been working on the xanthates for some time? What
was your first task?
Harris: Primarily the benzimate, and I was making derivatives. I got pure alcohol and products
were solids.
Quivik: What was the name of the group of researchers you were working with? Did it have a
name?
Harris: Dow had bought up the lab from Mineral Separation in San Francisco, and they went
out to Pittsburg.
Quivik: So they bought that lab and many of those people. Was that just after you started to
work at Dow?
Harris: Yes, a year after. They were working on the new building when I went to work for
them. My lab bench was on "two by twelves" on sawhorses. Then the new building
had conventional lab benches. Before then, it was very inelegant.
Quivik: I gather that this Great Western division was producing a variety of chemicals, of which
some were reagents for the mining industry, but they produced a lot of other kinds of
chemicals as well.
32
Harris: Yes, they had an ammonia plant. They were using the hydrogen from the electrolytic
cells, to combine with the nitrogen to make ammonia.
Quivik: And you were in a research group. Did this research group apply its efforts to any and
all of the chemicals that Dow was producing?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: So it wasn't a group just working on reagents. You could have been working on
anything. You just happened to fall into the reagent research?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: As background, can you describe what a reagent is? But first, go back further. Could
you describe flotation technology? What is flotation?
Harris: A typical copper ore will contain 0.6 or 0.7% copper. There are better ores, but that's a
typical ore. The big boulders are brought in and crushed. Then they are ground in
either a ball mill or a rod mill. Then it goes into the classifier and the fine stuff goes on
to a flotation cell. If it's too coarse, it goes back for another bash in the rod mill or ball
mill. In a flotation cell, the reagents are a frother, not a foamer. They blow air from the
bottom, and it is agitated. This goes down a bank of cells.
Quivik: We should add that all of the ore is in a slurry with water.
Harris: In this slurry, they blow air, and they have a frother. Then they add, what we call
collectors. The collector doesn't adsorb onto the gangue mineral. It adsorbs onto the
good mineral. That makes the copper particles more hydrophobia Hydrophobic
material will latch on to the bubbles. The rest of the ore is hydrophilic and stays
suspended, and goes on out the end of the cell bank. As the bubble comes up, the froth
spills over to the side, and falls down into a trough. The froth breaks down, and this
good mineral is carried by the water flow and the good ore is processed. You have
percent-recovery that's in the mid-90s. The good stuff is separated or recovered. The
other 98 or 99 percent goes out on the tailinh pile.
Quivik: A slurry, yes. In this slurry of finely pulverized ores and water, other chemicals are
added to assist in the flotation process. Can you describe what they are and what
functions they serve?
Harris: Sometimes the bulk material, the 98%, it doesn't need any chemicals. It itself is
hydrophilic, and stays suspended. If you go by some of the big mills in Arizona, there
are huge flat mountains and hills of this unwanted material. The good material ends up
in the smelter. It can be filtered off and roasted to get rid of the sulfur. The SO2 is often
taken and converted to 863 sulfuric acid.
Quivik: One of the things that's added to finely pulverized ore and water is oil, of one kind or
another. Can you describe what function that serves?
Harris: I don't remember which oil. Oil is used in the flotation of coal. I never worked on coal
until 1989 at UC Berkeley.
33
Quivik: Didn't they use pine oil in the early flotation process?
Harris: Oh yes, the frother. The collectors are organic compounds containing sulfur, and the
better ones sulfur and nitrogen. The benzimate didn't last because of economics, and
the Z200 was much better.
Quivik: When you were talking about the process earlier, it could sound like the frothers and the
collectors were pieces of equipment. So let's go back, and make it clear that the frother
was--.
Harris: You mentioned pine oil. Elmer Tveter, I worked with him. His chemistry was weak,
and my metallurgy was weak, so we made a great combination. He said, "Pine oil, all
that's good for is disinfecting urinals." [chuckles] He invented Galfroth 250. It's a
water-soluble frother. The previous ones were the pine oil, MIBC, and other alcohols.
Not the low ones like isopropyl or ethyl alcohol, because they're too water soluble, too
hydrophilic. Elmer invented the Galfroth 250, which was a monomethyl ether of a
polypropylene glycol. Dow still makes it. The monomethyl ether, a poly-propylene
glycol, di, tri, and then four, the still-bottom. There's no market for those. There's no
market for the still-bottom.
[Begin Tape 4, Side B]
Quivik: You said there was no market for them?
Harris: For the still-bottom. They developed the use of this still-bottom and if the demand
exceeded your still-bottom you could always just push the process toward the higher
alcohols. Because any alcohol or propylene oxide--. You can't just make one or two,
you get mixture. Dow had a real good frother and a real good collector, and they made
good xanthates.
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
What were some of the chemicals that served as collectors?
Ethyl xanthate, isopropyl, normal propyl, secondary butyl, isobutyl, normal butyl, and
amyl xanthate made from a mixture of amyl alcohol. The amyl alcohols were made by
the oxyl process, and you get mixtures.
Why would a mining company choose one of those collectors over another?
Because they're lauber, so you get a better recovery.
One mining company will treat one type of ore and another mining company will treat
another type of ore, so that they'll want to choose the collector that gives them the best
recovery for their particular kind of ore. Could you describe how two of those
collectors perform differently? Can you give an insight into why one collector would
be good for one type of ore and a different collector for a different type of ore.
Harris: In the late fifties, we finally got our first big order of Z200. Anaconda, up in Montana,
were using a reagent call Minerek. If you take ethyl chlorocarbonate and react it with a
34
xanthate, you get a material with the trade name Minerek. It's an oily product. Elmer
had done a lot of lab work on Anaconda ore, but they wouldn't listen to him. They
decided that they were going to enlarge their mill. In order to do that, they would have
had to enlarge their lime plant. They just didn't have the money to do both. Elmer
pointed out to them that if they used Z200, they could drastically cut down on their lime
requirements, because it works well at a lower pH than that required for flotation using
xanthates, or than required for Minerek.
So, they ordered it, and were paying one dollar a pound. Back then, that was big, big
bucks. But it did the job. Elmer was back up at Anaconda, and the mill superintendent
said, "Hey, we're getting 2% better recovery with the Z200!" Elmer said, "I guess you
didn't read my report." [laughter] So they got the report out, and Elmer pointed it out.
Well, you might say, what's 2%? When you consider a mill processing 100,000 tons of
ore, you can calculate that the increased recovery was a very appreciable amount. You
don't have to do anything more in the processing, because you don't have to grind the
ore twice. You don't have to use more frother, you don't have to do anything, it's just
there. From then on, we had a product. In 1979, when Dow went out of the mining
chemical business, they were selling 700,000 pounds of Z200. We estimated that
Minerek was selling at least 300,000. This makes one million pounds of the reagent
being sold in 1979.
Quivik: They are two different reagents, right?
Harris: Z200 was Isopropyl ethyl thiocarbonate and the competitor's stuff was amyl xanthate,
ethyl amy thiocarbonate. Ours was isopropyl. They cut theirs 50%, MIBC, and Dow
would not go for a diluted reagent. The middle management people were not
metallurgists, they said, "we're not selling reagents, we're selling chemicals, so we're
not doing any diluting!" McGill, in Nevada, when they were operating, our field man
pointed out to them that they could dilute the Z200 MIBC and use it as a reagent, and it
would make it really cheap. So, the people there called this their reagent, their
invention., "Nevada-1."
f
Quivik: The Anaconda company switched from Minerek to Z200. But your competitor
continued to sell a lot of Minerek, 300,000 pounds a year?
Harris: Well, that was the thiocarbonate Minerek not the xanthagen formate. They sold the
xanthagen formate in large quantities down in Chile. There is some use for xanthagen
formates, but not all that much.
Quivik: So there were two different chemicals that were sold under that same product name?
Harris: Yes, Minerek 27, Minerek 54, et cetera.
Quivik: To get back to an earlier question, for some of those companies, as they tested various
reagents in their process, on their ore, your competitor's reagent must have performed
better. That chemical worked as a better reagent than Z200? Is that fair?
Harris: Well, the thiocarbonate Minerek got in because when you take a seventy-five cent per
pound stuff and dilute it down MIBC twenty cents a pound you get a much cheaper
reagent. Dow wouldn't play their game and they knew it.
35
Quivik: So it was simply a matter of the cost of the reagent?
Harris: There are four thiocarbonate plants in China now, two of them are the Z200 processor.
The other two are probably the Minerek processor, thiocarbonate.
Quivik: Did you work at all with reagents that were used in selective flotation, that allowed a
company to separate out first zinc, say, and then lead?
Harris: No, they don't do that. One of the things that helped sell Z200 is that it works at a lower
pH and it is selective, you get less pyrite, which is deleterious. If you had too much
pyrite, your concentrate gets penalized.
Quivik: Were you working strictly in copper-related reagents?
Harris: Copper, zinc, lead, non-ferrous metals, and sulfides.
Quivik: There are some ores that are both zinc and lead-bearing. My understanding of the
process is that they run them through a flotation circuit that first produces one and then
another. Is that right?
Harris: At the moment I can't remember how that works.
Quivik: But Z200 is only used for copper?
Harris: Copper, nickel, and zinc. It will float lead. One of the thiocarbonates was successful at
a mill trial in Canada, I think at Falconbridge. They really liked it. Our middle
management guys were all looking for something where they could make a showing,
make a splash, to get a promotion. He said, "This was making so much money for
Falconbridge." So they raised up the price. We had a frother that I had developed, it
was a propylene oxide-type frother. But instead of starting with alcohol, it started with
a mercaptan, or H2S. It was successful in a mill trial at Morenci. Morenci had been
quoted a price of fifty-five cents a pound.
At that price, we could make good money, but the middle management guy got greedy.
He cranked up the price, and Morenci told the Dow field man, McCarty, where Dow
could shove it. So it got lost when Dow went out of the mining chemical business in
'79. Instead of initiating the DowFroth with methanol or any other alcohol, Dow
goofed. I wasn't in on the patent. ROH, instead of R being alkyl or hydrogen, they just
said R is an alkyl. Our competitor, American Cynamid which is now Cytec, used the
correct version of the frother and they're selling it today even, and now Dow is letting
someone else sell the DowFroth. I don't know the company that's selling the still-
bottom, but I'm sure that outfit is making the profits, and Dow is getting the peanuts.
Quivik: Now that we've defined some of these terms and where the chemicals fit into the
process, let's get into some of the work that you were doing at Dow when you first got
there. You were working on xanthates or on other reagents?
Harris: Xanthates and thiocarbonates. I mentioned that Falconbridge reagent, the Z200 would
take xanthate and react it with Dow's methylchloride and then react that xanthate ester
with ethyl amin. Isopropylamene is cheaper, but you get a little by-product and the by-
36
product from ethyl is soluble in the Z200. But if you use isopropylamene, you get di-
isopropyl thalurea. It's a little like aces plates. It doesn't hurt anything, but if
something goes wrong, the superintendent will always blame the reagent. Dow was
making ethylene amin, that's a three-member ring, CH2, CH2, and H. I took the
xanthate ester together with ethylene amin and got the product that we wanted without
having the methyl mercaptan react with the xeradine, the ethylene amin. Then you get
the mercaptan off that you have to handle. That was a good reagent and a neat process,
but it got lost in the shuffle at the last minute. One of Dow's big shots was pushing
ethylene amin but it didn't just meet up to their greedy standards. The government said
ethylene amin was carcinogenic. So what! You only use it as a reactant. But the Texas
plant used that as an excuse for shutting the plant down.
Quivik: When you first went to work at Dow, and you were working on new reagents, how did
you learn to approach the problems that the research group was trying to address?
Harris: I was the group. I was working with a metallurgist, but I was at an SME meeting and
met a new employee at American Cyanamid. He said, "Oh, you must be my
counterpart at Dow. You are the manager of the reagent development group." I said, "I
am the group."
Quivik: What happened to the people that were working at Great Western?
Harris: Once the xanthate plant got going, one of the fellows, one of the vice presidents, moved
back to Midland, he didn't want to be just a chemical engineer, working on problems.
Quivik: But that's what you wanted to do?
Harris: Oh, yes.
Quivik: So you were working with these chemicals that were used by the mining industry in
flotation. How did you communicate with the mining industry to understand what
problems they needed solved? You could have created any old chemical in your lab.
Harris: I had to be careful. Since I was the only one working there, I couldn't just pull stuff off.
If you do that, most of the reagents won't be effective, and you're not getting anywhere.
Also, I pretty much stuck to the carbonates, because Dow would not develop a new
reagent that would force them to shut down the Z200 plant.
Quivik: Let's go back before the development of Z200. What year did you develop that, '51, or
'52?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Did you have a small flotation mill at Dow to test things?
Harris: I did, Elmer Tveter would do the testing.
Quivik: Right there in Pittsburg?
Harris: Yes.
37
Quivik: Did he have a small flotation mill?
Harris: Yes, he had a 500 mL cell.
Quivik: Did he ask mining companies to send him ore samples?
Harris: Yes, they will. They'll send you a drum of their ore.
Quivik: So you would produce a chemical that you thought might perform better, and give it to
Elmer. And then he would try it out on a small batch of finely ground ore?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Would he give you a sense of how it performed, so that you could have data to take
back to your lab and modify your work? What kind of give and take was there between
you and Elmer?
Harris: He would comment on how effective it was and whether it needed an extra shot in the
arm or whatever. I would think about how I could modify things.
[Begin Tape 5, Side A]
Quivik: You had said that you had wanted to develop reagents that would work well on oxidized
sulfide ores?
Harris: Yes, copper ores. So I took a reagent down, and McCarty asked, "What'd you brew this
time, Doc?"
Quivik: Who was McCarty again?
Harris: The metallurgist. So, another reagent, and on the third one he gave a thumbs down. I
can't be that bad, so I made a reagent that was reported in the literature. It was a good
reagent, it wasn't a very good reagent, but it was a good reagent. It failed again, so I
realized that it wasn't my reagent, McCarty was doing something wrong. I ordered a
lead cell. I was going to finally succumb and do some flotation work myself, but then
Dow middle management said, "Nah, we're not going to bother with flotation reagents
anymore."
Quivik: What year was that?
Harris: 1979.
Quivik: So that was towards the end. Going back to the early years. What led you in the
direction that finally caused you to arrive at what we know we know as Z200? What
was the problem you were trying to address? Z200 was a new chemical on the market,
and you patented it. The patent was in your name?
Harris: There was a chemist working for me who would steal ideas from me, and he wrote his
name on the patent application.
38
Quivik: Were you two working in the lab together?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: When you started making Z200, did you know that it would be so effective, or were you
just trying various formulations and sending them on to the flotation test mill to see how
they would perform?
Harris: It was similar to another successful chemical so I thought it was worth trying.
Quivik: So you cooked up a batch and sent it to Elmer. How often were you sending him
sample reagents to test?
Harris: I don't remember, it was some time back.
Quivik: Did you come up with a new chemical each day, or each week?
Harris: No, we had a new research director, a real jerk. This guy was not giving me a raise. A
couple of my friends in management went to him, and pointed out to him that I had
contributed. This was back in the '70s, and I had contributed about 100 million dollars
to the company. I got my raise.
Quivik: And some of your research was dedicated not just to how to develop chemicals, but also
the problems of manufacture. Would you like to talk about some of the other forms of
work you did?
39
[Interview 3: July 13, 2001] [Begin Tape 6, Side A]
Quivik: This is Fred Quivik, and we're back at the Bancroft Library for another interview with
Guy Harris. After we finished our last interview you reminded me that one thing we
didn't talk about was who Dow's competitors were after you started to work for them.
Could you describe that for me, please?
Harris: American Cyanamid was our honorable competitor and they sold diathio-phosphates,
which is the phosphorous analog of the sulfur compound, the xanthates. They sold
diphenylthiocarbanilide and diphenylguanidine. They sold an air froth, which was a
polypropylene glycol frother, which gave us competition in our patent department. We
practically gave that to them on a silver platter. The other competitor was the Minerek
Corporation. They were a very secretive outfit, and we didn't have much to do with the
Minerek people. The president of the company, Dr. Fischer from Germany, he was
very secretive. They had a product, made from alcho-chloryl formate and xanthate
reactions, without salt. There was also a company making isopropyl chloroformate as
an intermediate in preparing an agricultural chemical. They went up to see Dr. Fischer,
to try to sell the isopropyl. He said, "Don't know what you're talking about." These
people said that they were making isopropyl and why, and Fischer said, "How much?"
But said no, they didn't use chloroformate, but what a chance to save some money!
Quivik: When they were competing with you at Dow-. First of all, were they competitors
specifically in mining chemicals, or were they competitors across the board for Dow?
Harris: Minerek was definitely primarily competing for the flotation collectors. But the
American Cynamid was a chemical company. Minerek was a reagent company. They
developed--. Fischer died, and the person who took over as president of the company
developed a process for the reaction of xanthates directly without amines. There was a
paper where they had taken isobutyl xanthate and reacted it with butyl amine, and they
got about a 56% yield. That was interesting, but not economically viable. The new
president found that if you added a nickel salt to the catalyst, that you got a respectable
yield. I don't remember the amount, but it was visible.
So they moved in on us. They were selling their stuff with half isobutyl alcohol, which
is a frother. Isobutyl alcohol was about a third of the cost of thionylcarbamate. So
when you mixed the two and charged the thionylcarbamate price, you made a good
' profit. We tried to get the middle management at Dow to do the same thing. They
responded, "We're selling chemicals, we don't sell reagents!"
Quivik: What was the difference in their minds? A reagent is a chemical.
Harris: I don't know, we had a lot of incompetent middle management people. I think today
Dow tends to just be a commodity producing company. Anything new? Their lower
management people can't do the job. Dow had created a material that behaved just like
Teflon, but cheaper. They got the patent and the publicity. Dow said that they would
license it, which means you take the short end of the stick. When they had the
interview, the chemist said he would back in the lab working again on something else.
40
They had a chance to make big bucks and they blew it. There are other products where
they blew it.
Quivik: These competitors, were they in some instances selling identical chemicals to Dow.
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: In other instances, they had a special chemical that they had a patent to?
Harris: Yes. American Cyanamid, their big deal was dithiophosphates. I think I'd made
mention that Kennecott, at their McGill operation, now defunct, they were buying the
Minerek stuffbecause it was a little cheaper. We told them that if they take their methyl
isobutyl carbanol (MIBC), and add it to Dow's Z200, they could just calculate what
their reagent costs would be. "Hey, we can do that?" Our men assured them that they
could. So they labeled it "Nevada 1." They went to management, and got nice brownie
points with upper management because Nevada 1 was cheaper than the Minerek.
Did I mention that I had been invited to lunch with the American Cyanamid people?
Quivik: When was this, approximately?
Harris: About thirty-five or forty years ago.
Quivik: 1960?
Harris: Yes, maybe '65. Their middle management guys were cut from the same cloth as the
Dow middle management people. They said they wouldn't pay for "that Dow bastard's
lunch." They said to divide my lunch among the six of them. The middle management
jerk was happy, I was happy, they were happy.
Quivik: Let's talk about xanthate. First of all, some general background so that people reading
or listening to this interview can know what xanthate is. Can you describe it generally?
Harris: It's a dithiocarbonate ester, half-ester, alkali metal salt. It's made from alcohol,
carbisulfide and sodium or potassium hydroxide. It was first made back in the early
part of the nineteenth century by a Danish chemist. I had written, for four different
issues of the Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, the xanthate article. One of the
reviewers griped that there was too much chemistry in my article!
Quivik: What the was the use that the Danish chemist had for xanthate?
Harris: He was playing around, too.
Quivik: So he just developed this type of chemical?
Harris: Yes, he made it but nothing much was done with it until Keller found that it was useful
in the flotation process.
Quivik: What is Keller's first name?
41
Harris: Cornelius Keller.
Quivik: Who did he work for?
Harris: Minerals Separation of North America, I think. One of the big uses of xanthate
chemistry is the cellulose xanthate in making cellophane.
Quivik: Let's build up to that. So xanthates are a class of chemicals? What distinguishes one
xanthate chemical from another xanthate chemical?
Harris: Well, sodium or potassium salt, and then the alcohol you use determines what the ester
is.
Quivik: Is there a different name for the xanthate depending whether it's made from sodium or
phosphate.
Harris: Well, the dithiophosphates, the analog, they're not a xanthate. They are made from
alcohol and P2S5, and the resulting acid, dithiophosphoric acid, a di-ester is reactive
with alkali hydroxide or carbonate. That's been one of the standbys for American
Cyanamid which is now split and called Cytec.
Quivik: I'm confused, because I thought you said that xanthate could be either a sodium or a--.
Harris: Sodium or potassium xanthate. There are sodium or potassium salt in dithiophosphates
as well.
Quivik: Is it indifferent whether sodium or potassium is used?
Harris: Not flotation wise, but potassium xanthates don't form hydrates, sodium salts do.
Quivik: Is there a way of giving a name to the xanthates depending on whether they are made
from the sodium or potassium salts?
Harris: Oh yes. X9 was the potassium isopropyl xanthate, and Zl 1 was the sodium.
Quivik: Do people generally class them as sodium xanthates or potassium xanthates?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: The other difference is the kind of alcohol that is used in making them?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: So that opens up a wide array of xanthates, depending on the alcohol. Are there any
other differences? Any other ways that xanthates can differ from each other?
Harris: Well, methylxanthate is a very poor flotation agent, ethyl is good, and the isopropyl is a
little better. Butyl is better. As you increase the molecular weight of the alcohol, or
size of the alcohol group, the xanthate, you improve the flotation performance. It goes
up and then levels off. When you go from eight to ten, it doesn't make much difference.
42
Quivik: When did Keller first apply xanthate to flotation?
Harris: 1926 and 1927.
Quivik: Was it a particular xanthate?
Harris: No, it was generic.
Quivik: He didn't care whether it was sodium or potassium.
Harris: No.
Quivik: He didn't care what alcohol was used?
Harris: No. He did squeeze a few extra patents out on the xanthates.
Quivik: At that time, were there any other uses for xanthates besides flotation? Was that the
first application for xanthates?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Did you say that xanthates were used in making cellophane?
Harris: Cellulose is a polyglucose with a very high molecular weight. Between the linkage
connections there are some alcohol groups and you can isolate those groups, or you can
make xanthate from that group. When you make cellulose xanthate, it becomes soluble.
Then you can do chemical manipulations, and acidify and destroy the xanthates.
They're not very stable at acid pH's. You get whatever polymer you're shooting for and
cellophane was one of them.
Quivik: When was that development?
Harris: By Dupont, I think in the thirties. I remember that when I got going in the late thirties,
it was new.
Quivik: When did people begin recognizing that there were different xanthates and that they
would have different performances in metallurgy?
Harris: When Keller started doing his lab work.
Quivik: So he was the one who developed the first several varieties of xanthate. Did he give
them different names.
Harris: Great Western was making a xanthate. They had worked out a deal with him, and the
price was the license fee. In the old process, they had lump xanthate, and they had some
poor guy pounding away, breaking it up. It was "Bear" xanthate. Probably, one of the
honchos was a Cal graduate, [laughter] They used to ship it out in 55-gallon drums. I
know that I had discussed the process when I was first at Dow with engineers that were
developing a new process. They used pentane as a dispersant. The heat of the reaction,
sodium hydroxide with alcohol and the ale-oxide reacting with carbonic sulfide, and
43
with pentane burning at 36 degrees, the heat of reaction went into the pentane. Then the
heat was unloaded on the condenser.
They ended up with a powdered product, and they didn't have to make some poor guy's
health suffer from sulfide toxicity. They didn't need anyone pounding. It went into a
spray dryer, and from the spray dryer it went to a pelletizer. They add a little methanol
to facilitate the pelletizing process. The pellets would also pass air through and that
oxidized the trithiocarbonate bi-product. When they were first selling the new
processed xanthates, they had a problem with stuff catching on fire in the drums. By
passing the air through they were able to oxidize whatever it was that was causing the
fire. In the drum, when it would react with the air, the heat wasn't dissipated. But when
the air was passing through, the heat went out with the air.
Quivik: Was that an impurity that was oxidizing?
Harris: The culprit, yes.
Quivik: The spray dryer yielded a powder?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And then they would pelletize the powder?
Harris: Yes, and they would recycle the pentane. Most of the pentane got recycled.
Quivik: At some point somebody started referring to these various xanthates as Z8, Z9, or Zl 1 .
Harris: That was Dow copyright identity. I have a friend at Cytec, and he cringes when I use
the Dow terminology.
Quivik: So that was specifically a Dow terminology applied after Dow purchased Great
Western?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Prior to that, was there any way that Great Western distinguished between its various
xanthates?
Harris: They would identify what you're getting by the number. Z3 was potassium ethyl, Z4
was sodium, and Z5 was potassium amyl. Z9 was the potassium isopropyl. Zll was
the sodium isopropyl. Z12 was the isobutyl, and I don't remember if it was the sodium.
They made both with the butyl.
Quivik: So Great Western had started to use that "Z" nomenclature beforehand?
Harris: Yes, when we get on to why I was hired by Dow, the benzimate was also called Z105.
Quivik: Where does the Z come from? Xanthate is spelled with an 'x'.
Harris: Maybe somebody's wife was named Zelma, I don't know, [laughter]
44
Quivik: Okay, it isn't related to anything in the chemical formula?
Harris: No, no.
Quivik: So the purchaser--. It was a lot easier to refer to something as Z4 or Z8, but the
purchaser knew which of the xanthates it was and how it would perform on a particular
ore in a flotation mill.
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Okay. Let's jump ahead to where we were talking last time.
I was asking you about the development work you were doing when you came across
what came to be called Z200. I was asking you if there was some kind of problem you
were trying to solve. Did you think of that as a problem-solving effort?
Harris: No, I was experimenting. I may have mentioned that the more benzimate they sold, the
more money they lost.
Quivik: So when you working with xanthates, for example, were you focusing on trying to
accomplish a particular thing? Or were you simply trying to see if you could make a
new chemical?
Harris: A new chemical that would be a good reagent.
Quivik: Obviously you wanted it to have a good application. But in the first instance, did you
try to make the new chemical because you thought it would work better? Or were you
simply looking at various chemical compounds that you could make and thinking it
would be interesting to make?
Harris: I think I told you that this fellow I had met in San Francisco from American Cyanamid
asked if I was his counterpart, the head of the reagent development section. I said, "I
am the reagent development section." Since I was working alone, I couldn't afford to
just pull things off the shelf. I had to have reasons for believing it might work. If I
made a lot of potential reagents that weren't reagents, no one would have any
confidence in me.
Quivik: Can you remember why you thought Z200 might work? What was it about that
chemical?
Harris: It had the nitrogen and sulfur that could attach to the mineral surface. Well, the
chelating agent.
Quivik: You believed that would make it more effective? That would improve its affinity for
the bubbles and the froth and its surface attraction. So it would float better?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Prior to developing what came to be called Z200, had you developed some other
xanthate variants?
45
Harris: No, this came pretty early. I had also made analogues of the benzimate, the 105 to see if
there was something we could make. I had my hands tied. Dow hates like hell to put
money in a new plan on an unproven thing. Also, they didn't want anything that would
compete with the Z200. They were all rotten on the Z200 in the beginning because it
would compete with their established group of xanthates.
Quivik: Had there been other "Z's" all the way up to Z 1 99 by then?
Harris: No, but since they had gone past ten, from one to one hundred was set aside for
xanthates. The one hundred series was the benzimate. The thionylcarbamates was
another class, the 200's. I had some real good 200 series compounds.
Quivik: Can you describe the process of coming to recognize that it was going to be a promising
reagent?
Harris: I suspected it would be, so I wasn't surprised when it was. I was kind of surprised that it
was so much better than the benzimate. As I mentioned before, the benzimate was an
invention of Keller's, and we paid him royalties. Benzimate was a very effective agent,
and the sales were going up and up. Someone calculated the economics, and the more
we sold, the more money we lost.
Quivik: How did you learn that it was indeed a good reagent?
Harris: Whenever I made anything, my buddies in the flotation lab would evaluate it,
particularly Elmer Tveter.
Quivik: How large a quantity did you make in the lab for him to test?
Harris: Probably one or two hundred grams.
Quivik: Did you think that this would work on copper sulfides in particular, or sulfides in
general? What kinds of instructions did he have? What kind of ore was he supposed to
test it on?
Harris: He had all sorts of ores. He would look at particular ores, particularly at customers who
were buying a lot. Pipsqueak copper mines-, he wouldn't spend a lot of time on their
ores.
Quivik: Do you remember what he tested it on?
Harris: No, he had so many.
Quivik: Do you remember how he told you that it was working well? Do you remember that
exchange?
Harris: No, Dow management purchased the Z105. They purchased ammonium thiocyanate,
and they purchased the alcohol. The diluent was methylene chloride, which was made
by Dow. That was the only Dow in the process. They made the Zl 1, the xanthate, and
step number one was to react it with methylchloride. Dow made methylchloride. The
46
only thing we bought outside was the eyhyl amine. So we sold Z200 and methyl
mercaptin.
Quivik: Once you learned that Z200 was an effective reagent, what was the next step in turning
this into a marketable product?
Harris: Well, we had to sell Dow middle management that they ought to consider another
reagent. The economics on the Z105 really killed it. Our first customer was Anaconda.
Quivik: This was for Z200?
Harris: Yes, Anaconda wanted to double the size of their mill. They had the money for that, but
they couldn't afford to increase the size of their lime plant. The lime raised the pH.
They were using Minerek A which was a reaction product, ethyl chloroformate, and
ethyl xanthate. So, they got the diethyl xantholoumate.
Quivik: What year are we talking now?
Harris: Late fifties. Elmer Tveter pointed out to them that if they used the Z200, they could
lower the pH. They could double their mill, and they could get by with the old lime
plant. It was going for a dollar a pound and the xanthates were going for about thirty
cents. The Z200 worked on a lower dosage, so that helped on the reagent price per ton.
Elmer went back some weeks later, and the mill superintendent was very excited. He
said that he was getting 2% better recovery. That's very important, because increased
recovery doesn't add anything to your milling cost. Elmer said, "oh you didn't read my
report?" Elmer pulled out the report--.
Quivik: Anaconda was, at that point, actually using Z200 in their concentrator. To get to the
point of being able to make Z200 in a quantity sufficient to supply Anaconda, did you
have to make changes in the Dow plant?
Harris: We had to build a Z200 plant.
Quivik: Was that a whole new plant or was that an addition on to an existing plant?
Harris: It was a whole new plant right next door to the xanthates.
Quivik: How large a facility was this new plant?
Harris: When we went out of the mining reagent business, we were selling seven million
pounds of Z200 per year.
Quivik: But the initial plant?
Harris: That was the same plant.
Quivik: Wow! Was that plant built in anticipation of finding customers, or after Anaconda
decided it would buy the stuff?
Harris: That I don't remember. I don't know how they would have made it without the plant.
47
Quivik: The facilities necessary for Z200 were not such that there could be a plant set aside for
making initial batches of a variety of chemicals?
Harris: No, we didn't have it. They probably went ahead and-. The Z200 plant wasn't that
huge because it was a continuous operation. It wasn't a batch plant.
Quivik: And it was connected to the xanthate plant, since xanthate was one of the-.
Harris: That way, they didn't have to drum the xanthate.
Quivik: As a chemist, were you involved with chemical engineers at Dow in helping to design
the Z200 production plant.
Harris: Oh, yes.
Quivik: What did you do in that regard?
Harris: Probably told them what they could get away with and what they couldn't.
Quivik: Would they come into your lab and try to understand and replicate the process that you
had used? Did they try to replicate it on a production scale, or was there something else
about it?
Harris: That was probably the technology flow.
Quivik: Once the Z200 plant was built and underway, were you at all involved with issues that
came up during production? I'm not sure what those issues might be, but
troubleshooting or difficulties in the process?
Harris: The chemical reaction procedure was not a tricky technology, it just worked fine.
Quivik: So once it got into production, you could turn your attention to other things.
Harris: [nods]
Quivik: After Anaconda started buying it—and by the way, what kind of quantities were they
buying?
So, we just did a little estimate on the back of an envelope of what kind of quantity
Anaconda might have been buying early on. What did you come up with?
Harris: One hundred eighty thousand pounds per year.
Quivik: So once Anaconda started buying Z200, did other mining companies start buying it,
too?
Harris: I know McGill from Nevada was using it. We had customers down in Arizona and
foreign customers. The big copper mine in Yugoslavia was using it.
48
Quivik: Was Z200 only effective on copper sulfide minerals? Or did it have other applications
as well?
Harris: It was useful for other metal sulfides.
Quivik: Any worthy of mentioning?
Harris: I can't think of any. I know that there were zinc operations that were using it. Zinc is a
pseudo-copper.
Quivik: What was the physical setting for your work?
Harris: My lab bench when I first went to Dow was two-by-twelves on some sawhorses. But
then within a year, the new building had opened up and my lab was right by where the
service lines came in. I don't think it was the Dow engineer that was doing the design
work. But the line taking off from my lab— water was on the underside. That meant that
all the crud came along and dropped down. Right in the middle of one of my
experiments I needed the water. I had to get going. We in research had our own
maintenance crew and I knew that I couldn't wait on them. So I turned it off and broke
the union and then put it back together. I saw one of my friends in research
maintenance and I told him that I had saved him some work. He said, "Thank God you
didn't tell me last week because I was union steward and would have had to report you."
Quivik: How large a room was your lab?
Harris: About 20 percent bigger than this one.
Quivik: And this room is probably fifteen by twenty-five. What did it have in it, lab benches?
Harris: It had lab benches on the side, and a small hood in the corner and a big hood in the
center. We didn't have any sawhorses.
Quivik: Did the lab serve as your office or did you have an office elsewhere?
Harris: My desk was off in a comer, and Fischback, who worked with me, was doing
something with the vacuum pump. Of course, anything pumped out went into the room.
One day, "Oh my god, that's phosgene!" I went over to the first aid and they said, "well,
if you wake up tomorrow, you've got it made." [laughter]
Quivik: So he was pumping phosgene right into the room there with you?
Harris: Our safety record really went up when they moved him into management, [laughter]
Quivik: His name was Fischback, what was his first name?
Harris: Bryant.
Quivik: Was he another research chemist? Did he have his own projects?
49
Harris: He was working for me at first. He grabbed the Z200 and put his name on the patent.
We eventually came together like that.
Quivik: You just crossed your hands, so you became good friends, had a good relationship?
Was that considered your lab?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Were there other chemists who had labs nearby, on your floor?
Harris: Oh yes, the building is still there.
Quivik: How many labs were in that building?
Harris: About twenty-five or thirty.
Quivik: And each lab had its own chemist, and that was his or her turf?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And you typically had one assistant or more?
Harris: Well, Bryant was my assistant for a while. Then he got to be one of the chemists.
Quivik: He had his own lab?
Harris: No, he was in with me. But he was successful, and able to take over.
Quivik: Take over what?
Harris: All of the technicians.
Quivik: Who were the technicians? What did technicians do?
Harris: They made compounds, and you told them what to do.
Quivik: So this was a group of support staff. And they were available for you to draw on when
you needed assistance?
Harris: Yes. After Fischback succeeded, I did my own work. Everything that was done, except
for filing patents, I pretty much did myself.
Quivik: You didn't have a technician working with you, then?
Harris: Not always.
Quivik: I'm curious about the technicians. Were they people who were on the staff and
available for you if you needed them? Or were they permanently assigned to a given
chemist?
50
Harris: Permanently assigned.
Quivik: You mentioned your doctor. Did you mean that your doctor at one time had been one of
these technicians and then went to medical school?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: What kind of people did you work with on a daily basis?
Harris: Technical people.
Quivik: But you were in your lab, you might have an assistant, sometimes you did all of your
preparation. Did you go to work and work alone all day, or did you have regular
interactions with other people?
Harris: When I completed making a potential reagent, I would take it over to Elmer.
Quivik: And he had his lab across the hall, you said? That's where he did his flotation
experiments?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Anyone else you worked with regularly?
Harris: Some of the analytical people, particularly Herb Terlinger.
[Begin Tape 7, Side A]
Quivik: You said you would work sometimes with analytical people. The analytical people,
what did they do?
Harris: I would take one of our commercial xanthates and pulverize it. I would leave it sit a
matter of days, and when the dark color would disappear, I would know the impurities
had been oxidized. I would take that in and they'd run an assay on it using a silver
electrode.
Quivik: So they had facilities to do that kind of assay work and other analytical work for
everybody?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: From this interview, I've gathered that one of your favorite classes of people were
middle management. How often did you get to meet with them?
Harris: I'd say hello to them in the hall.
Quivik: Did you have to make reports on what you were doing?
Harris: Oh, yes, we used to have write monthly reports.
51
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Did they go to these middle managers?
Yes, anyone who wanted to look at them.
What kinds of things did you describe in those reports?
The things I had made, or planned to make.
Did you include some sort of evaluation of what you had made? How was your work
evaluated? You said earlier that you needed to be finding reagents that actually worked
well. How was your work as a chemist evaluated, to see if what you were doing had
practical applications?
The person I had to report to, I also talked with them. I talked to the immediate boss,
who I got along fine with. Eventually I got a promotion and I didn't have a boss, just
someone I reported to on paper.
Who was your boss, when you had a boss?
Luke Simonson, a chemical engineer from the University of Washington. We all
worked pretty closely together. He moved into production, and I was working for a
chemist named Ted Norton. That was a good relationship. I worked on a lot of other
things besides reagents, but at the beginning the reagents were one of my primary
efforts.
Did these guys like Simonson and Norton have their own research labs? Or did they
just supervise a group of research chemists?
Simonson was definitely just supervisory, and Ted Norton was both. Ted moved back
to Michigan, and was in charge of a big research lab there. He just quit Dow, and they
didn't want him to go. He was very good and honorable, a unique manager.
Did they sometimes have research assignments for you?
If something needed to be done, I would do it. I wasn't that obnoxious.
Would you say that in those early years most of your work came from assignments that
were give to you by your supervisor? Or was most of your work self-directed? Which
was it?
My own.
When you were doing this reagent work with Elmer, he actually did the flotation tests.
But before you started working on that, how much did you know about extractive
metallurgy?
Nothing, when the flotation lab moved from San Francisco to Pittsburg, I went in there
and they had all this funny stuff, and they were scraping off foam. I thought, "what on
earth is going on here?" I hadn't the foggiest idea. When I was in junior college, I was
interested in minerals. I worked in the lab, and I set up as if I was doing class work.
52
That cost me an A. He said I did "A" work but it took an awful lot of time. I couldn't
tell him that I was using their equipment and chemicals so that I could play around with
my mineral study. That's the closest thing. I got the mining merit badge. I had friends
who were interested in locating minerals. That was in my youth. I had not taken any
classes. It was just kind of osmosis.
Quivik: From spending time with Elmer?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: During that time, did you ever visit any metallurgical plants, to see how--?
Harris: Oh yes, I had gone out with Carl Williams on one of his tours. I remember we stopped
at Winemuca and he ordered a steak. He wanted it rare, he said, "knock off the horns
and bring it in." Our primary goal was a visit to McGill. We visited some other small
mines, and we were heading back towards Reno to cross over to California. He
slammed on the breaks and said, "It's a stamp mill when it's working." That was the
only stamp mill I'd seen. It was interesting. But McGill was a big operation. I went out
on other times after that.
Quivik: During this reagent phase of your work, did you ever have any direct communications
with people in the mining industry?
Harris: Only the few times I went out with the field man. Then I would meet them at the SME
meetings. That was the only relationship I had. Generally, Elmer handled that, and I
handled reagent development.
Quivik: If Elmer wanted someone to try a chemical, or if they had a question about reagents,
they would come into Elmer? You wouldn't field those types of questions from
potential clients?
Harris: No. I met development people at Climax. We visited their research lab in Denver.
Quivik: What kind of research did they do? How did they compare?
Harris: They were more Elmer Tveter research.
Quivik: So they would be testing reagents on their ores?
Harris: Yes, working on their process.
Quivik: At some point you got a promotion. You had someone that you reported to, but it was
no longer your boss. Did that change your daily routine at all?
Harris: No, I did what I wanted to. I was considered an obnoxious bullhead. I was told the
reason I didn't get the top rating is that the people back in Midland didn't like my
negative attitude towards management.
Quivik: We should talk a little bit about the Dow hierarchy. When you say, "people back in
Midland," what is that?
53
Harris: Well, the honchos. I had friends back in Midland. One of my friends became very
unpopular with the middle management research people. I remember going into the
country club for lunch in Midland with the obnoxious--! like him, but the unpopular
guy. I said hello, and they just kind of glared at me. Eventually I realized that it was
because of who I came in with. That didn't help me, to associate on a friendly basis with
Joe Dunbar.
Quivik: What was his position?
Harris: Something like mine, doing research. Dunbar, eventually they told him to find a job in
or out of Dow, but nobody would hire him because his bosses would badmouth him.
One of the honchos was out at our house for dinner and he mentioned Joe Dunbar. He
asked if he should hire him, and I said, "You know and I know how Dunbar can be kind
of obnoxious, which is an understatement, [chuckles] But you know and I know that he
is a damn good chemist. You know, you're a bigger man than that." He said, "I'll hire
him." Joe came that close to being dumped out on the street.
Quivik: He was a research chemist at Midland. How about Pittsburg? What was the hierarchy
within Dow? Did your supervisor report to someone at the top in Pittsburg?
Harris: We had a research director. When I got to Dow, we had a research director, Dr.
Wilhelm Hirschkind. He got his Ph.D. under Haber, the man who developed the
ammonia process. Eventually he had to retire, and Robert Heitz took over. When I got
my promotion I reported only to him.
Quivik: Hirschkind and Heitz were both at Pittsburg?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Did they report to some research vice-president at Midland.
Harris: Yes, the company research director back in Midland.
Quivik: How often did you go to Midland?
Harris: Oh, fairly often. It was an all-day ride just to get to Chicago in a DC-6 or a DC-7. Then
we'd take a secondary airline flight to Midland.
Quivik: How long was that flight?
Harris: An hour or two.
Quivik: What was the purpose of your trips to Midland?
Harris: Sometimes I gave technical talks. Generally, I would interact with the people in the
labs back there.
Quivik: Exchange techniques?
Harris: Techniques and ideas.
54
Quivik: Did Dow put any sorts of limits or parameters on your research?
Harris: No, they left me alone.
Quivik: Why is that?
Harris: Because I was obnoxious.
Quivik: But from the Dow perspective? Is that the way they treated all of their research
chemists?
Harris: No, I was good, if I may take my bows now. So they felt— . I remember one time they
assigned someone to me, and he wanted to go back and get a master's at Berkeley. They
told him that he could work for me for a year, and he would get the ranking in pay as if
he had a master's. We had a consultant from Berkeley, Melvin Calvin, who eventually
got a Nobel prize. He lost three bets with me, and he would have lost a fourth but I
couldn't remember which book to bring out to nail him. He was arguing that Fischback
was--. At first I signed up to interview with him, but I figured it was a waste of time.
Fischback was doing a political thing, and was signed up for Calvin. They were arguing
away, and I got fed with the argument and said, "Fischback is right." Calvin said,
"Well, if Harris says I'm wrong, I'm wrong."
Quivik: What kinds of things did Dow recognize in you that made you good? What makes a
good research chemist?
Harris: Well, back in the seventies, we had a new research director who wouldn't give me a
raise. He didn't like my untidy lab.- Fischback and another fellow went in to see him
and laid it out on the research director's table. "This guy has contributed to over one
hundred million dollars in profits to the company." The guy said, "Oh, I didn't know
that." [in mocking tone] So I got my raise.
Quivik: So to say that you were good depended on your track record of making good products
for Dow. Do you know how your track record compared to other chemists?
Harris: I never paid attention to that. One of the products they made big bucks on was a
product to add to chicken food to control coccidiosis. With that disease, if you walk
into an infected chicken yard and then walk into your own chicken yard, you would lose
your chickens, too. So these commercial people could lose thousands of chickens in an
outbreak, so this was very important stuff.
To give you an idea of the value of it, Merck was our competitor. They knew our stuff
was really good, and they had something that was pretty good. So they wanted to hold
us up, because their stuff was going to be online. So they bribed the fellow Food and
Drug Administration. We had done our lab work, and we didn't have the animals
anymore. We had sacrificed them to study their internal-the way things were. This
guy said that we had to do a year's lab work, not just six months. They changed the
ground rules. That meant that we were held up for another year. That guy wound up
working for Merck, and after a few years was able to retire. It was pure bribery. But
with such a super-lucrative drug, it was whatever you had that works. Somebody at
Merck said it pays to bribe. What's new?
55
Quivik: Let's have a little background on that development. First of all, what does coccidiosis
do to chickens?
Harris: They don't last long, they die, they drop dead.
Quivik: They get some kind of illness?
Harris: Yes, in their innards. If you don't have your birds in pens, or if you change your shoes,
if it gets in some chicken feed, it's highly contagious.
Quivik: Do they contract the disease from what they eat, then, or by walking in it?
Harris: All sorts of ways, any contact you can think of.
Quivik: Even airborne?
Harris: Possibly.
Quivik: How did you get involved in that line of work?
Harris: Fischback was cranking out compounds and sending them in.
Quivik: To whom?
Harris: Our test lab back in Midland. I told him, "Make the amid." I just knew the acid wasn't
worth much.
Quivik: What kinds of compounds was he cranking out?
Harris: Di-nitro-benzamid; 3-5 di-nitro-benzamid.
Quivik: He was just making a lot of that chemical?
Harris: He was just making it for the agricultural lab. The animal test was also part of this lab.
When we make anything, we automatically make enough to send ten grams to the ag.
lab.
Quivik: The agricultural lab at Midland. So Dow Chemical's research lab at Midland was
working on this coccidiosis problem, and asked Fischback to--?
Harris: No, he was making the compound. We ended up making the 3-5-di-nitro-toluamid, and
that was the best. In my list of patents, you'll see some of this stuff. I developed the
process. If they were still making it anywhere, it's not Dow. When the patent expired,
Dow had to stop because they can't compete with this cutthroat business.
[Begin Tape 7, Side B]
Quivik: Is that an instance where a research assignment came from headquarters?
56
Harris: No, when they developed an interest in it, I got working on the process for making an
intermediate. In my process, we could take 85% pure orthotoluic acid and get 99%
quality out of the process. It just worked like a charm.
Quivik: What was the compound that Dow made that solved this problem?
Harris: [It was] 3-5-di-nitro-orthotoluamid.
Quivik: That was a chicken feed additive. How did that address the coccidiosis problem?
Harris: You just added the stuff to the chicken feed and collect your eggs, and sell your
chickens off to the slaughter. It kept them alive.
Quivik: Did it help them develop a resistance to the disease? Did it cure them after they got the
disease?
Harris: It's preventative. There was no cure, because as soon as they got sick, they were dead
in short order.
Quivik: Did it work as a—?
Harris: --Preventative, I don't know what the medical term is. Prophylaxis.
Quivik: So they knew already that the chemical was effective? Your contribution was to figure
out how to make it?
Harris: Yes. I made sure Fischback sent the amid in.
Quivik: What was the significance of that?
Harris: It is not particularly water-soluble. The acid would go through the chicken in a rush. If
you swallowed some, the body would quickly eliminate it.
Quivik: And the amid would be retanized?
Harris: It was slowly metabolized.
Quivik: You knew that Dow was working on this problem. Was it in the company literature?
Harris: No, when we would send stuff in, we would get reports. Most of the things we made
weren't all that active. When something was really good for an herbicide, we'd get the
test results. If we had something that looked interesting, then we'd start making analogs
to try to come up with something better.
Quivik: So you knew that this was work that was going on in the company. You just thought
that this looked like fun stuff to work on? How did you happen to get into it?
Harris: I knew that acid had a little activity, and I told Fischback to make the amid, because it
would be more effective. That made millions for the company. If the organism hasn't
57
developed resistance, and they're still making it, they're using my process. Because you
can't beat it.
Quivik: What's the connection between your process and your telling Fischback to send in the
amid?
Harris: The process came later.
Quivik: I see. The amid proved to be the effective chemical, and later on you started working on
the process for making the material. What year was that, roughly?
Harris: Probably in sixties. Look at the patent.
Quivik: You looked at your list of patents, when were you working on the chicken feed
additive?
Harris: Late fifties.
Quivik: Were there other agricultural chemicals that you worked on?
Harris: Yes, but they don't come to mind. They're in the list of patents.
Quivik: You worked on something related to rocket fuel at one point?
Harris: There was a pushy gal, and I always liked her. She had a rocket fuel as a solid. She had
a secret contract, and I didn't have a Q clearance.
Quivik: What is a Q clearance?
Harris: That I could have access to confidential material. It's a security clearance by the
government.
Quivik: Do you remember her name?
Harris: Phyllis Derner O.J. Jones. Derner when she first came, and then she married and re
married. They were making it out in the pilot plant. We'd go by on the way to the
cafeteria, and it smelled pretty fishy. Tri-methyl, methylene, or tri-methylene, it was
one of the three, and she borrowed some isopropyl chloride from me and said it
wouldn't work. So I knew it was a nucleophillic displacement reaction of some sort.
My friend in analytical said there couldn't be any bromide in her product. Bromide is a
much more reactive agent for these displacement reactions. Isopropyl bromide,
probably reacting with the trimethylene. The fellow doing the analysis wasn't cleared
either. But he knew what the figures were, and that wasn't classified. From the
nitrogen, and knowing rocket fuel wanted nitrate: trimethyl isopropyl ammonium
nitrate. I took a practically empty reagent bottle from stuff we had bought. The typing
was kind of faint, so I erased it and smoothed it down with a glass rod. I steamed off the
label and the research director's secretary type isopropyl triomethyl ammonium nitrate
on the bottle and put it back on. We had the fellow from the store room come in with
this bottle and we were all around Fred's desk. Just happened to be there!
58
Quivik: Who is Fred?
Harris: He had the other half of the lab that Phyllis had. George said, "Fred, you got any of
this?" Fred knew what he was supposed to say. No, he didn't have any and Phyllis said
maybe she'd have some. When she saw what was typed on the bottle, she went roaring
up to her boss, called the FBI: "There's been a security breach." Her boss calmed her
down. Our boss called one fellow, who was quite involved in hallucinogenic drugs.
Sascha was called in and got blamed for it.
Quivik: Who was Sascha?
Harris: The hallucinogenic drug scientist.
Our boss never closed his door, but this time it was closed, so he knew who it was.
Sascha came out, and told us that all the boss had said was to knock it off.
Harris: I developed a process for making the rocket fuel starting with the bromide. Not having
to use the iron exchange resin made it a much simpler process. We filed a patent on it.
The patent attorney called me in to sign the application, he covered it, and he said sign
here. I said, this isn't a grant deed to my house, is it?
Quivik: He covered up most of the document? You couldn't see what you were signing?
Harris: Yes, I wasn't cleared. I didn't have security clearance.
Quivik: So you were still working on this process, even though you didn't have clearance. Were
you working jointly with Phyllis?
Harris: Oh, no, I was working on my own. Eventually the deal was declassified, and then they
issued my patent.
Quivik: Did Phyllis use your process?
Harris: That I don't know. I just know that it got filed.
Quivik: And it was related to the work you were able to decipher that she was working on.
Harris: Yes, we all had to be there.
Quivik: Do you know if it had any practical use?
Harris: They were using it, because we were making large amounts in our pilot plant.
Quivik: But you couldn't learn any more about it because you didn't have clearance. How about
other chemicals that you developed related to the mineral industry?
Harris: The Z21 1 was an analogue of Z200. If you take Z200, and the ethyl amin and add on
sulfide methyl, that's 211. It was very good in Canada. I forgot the name of the mine, a
big nickel mine in Canada.
59
Quivik: Near Sudbury?
Harris: Yes, they really liked it, because it really enhanced their recovery. But the middle
management guy said it was saving it them so much money that they raised the price.
The Canadians told us what we could do with it.
Quivik: So was that was being used for nickel?
Harris: It got patented, but middle management guys ruined it, as they did on our frothers.
Quivik: But what was the application, on nickel?
Harris: Yes, it was used for nickel flotation.
Quivik: I also understand that you worked on uranium processing somehow?
Harris: Well, in the uranium process, they take P2O5 and alcohol, and you get equal amounts of
the di-ester and the mono-ester. Mono-ester is no good for uranium flotation. There
was no way to eliminate getting the mono, because P2O5 and alcohol produces water.
That equivalent gives you the mono-ester. So I thought, if you take glycol and form the
epoxy, you eliminated water. So I have a couple patents on the reaction of P2O5 with
CIO, alcolene oxide. We tested for everything except uranium. I don't know why, but
I'd be willing to give you long odds that it was a uranium collector.
Quivik: Who figured out that it was a uranium collector?
Harris: I don't know why the lab people--. I don't remember.
Quivik: Was it used for-?
Harris: No, but that was the reason I made the material, to be used as a— maybe it's mentioned
in the patent. I don't know.
Quivik: You developed it to be used as a uranium collector, but they never tested it?
Harris: No.
Quivik: So that was a dead end development, it never went anywhere?
Harris: Right.
Quivik: It's just sitting in the patent office and that's it?
Harris: So much did not get done at Dow.
Quivik: Let's turn our attention to some of the folks you worked with. Let's get some
reminiscences. First of all, did you ever know Keller yourself?
Harris: Oh, yes, he's buried over in Holy Cross Cemetery in Colma. He had a keen sense of
humor, I can still see his eyes twinkling. He was telling some of the stories, when he
60
was down in Mexico. He was a prisoner of Pancho Villa. Villa had these cannons, but
he ran out of gunpowder. The Mexican and American governments made it difficult for
him to get a hold of any, so he wanted to use dynamite. Keller was smart enough to
know that the first time he got something dynamite-based, after the first shot there
would be one less cannon, and one less Keller.
Keller was from Switzerland, he could speak, read, and write French, German, Italian,
Latin, English, and Spanish. He told us one time that he had a boss snooping in his
notebook. So he started to write his notebook in Latin, [laughter] Which is perfectly
legitimate.
Quivik: How did you get to know him?
Harris: Because he use to come out, see how things were going. He also talked with the
flotation people across the hall, because he had worked with them in San Francisco.
Quivik: So he would come out to the Pittsburg plant.
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: How about John Locken?
Harris: Oh, that guy. He was in charge of the lab--. He could tell daylight from nighttime. I
remember one time Elmer got a patent for something, and Locken said he wanted his
name on that. He wasn't an inventor!
Quivik: What was his job?
Harris: He was the head of flotation. Elmer worked for him. At first he told Elmer, "You
spend too much time talking with Harris. I want you to stop." But Elmer didn't pay any
attention to him.
Quivik: Was Locken a metallurgist?
Harris: Of sorts, yes.
Quivik: He came out with the San Francisco lab?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Did you work with him directly?
Harris: No, I worked with Elmer.
Quivik: How about Darryl Anderson?
Harris: Darryl Anderson came out in charge of the lab, we were good friends.
Quivik: The flotation lab?
61
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: So what was the difference between Anderson and Locken? I thought you said that
Locken was in charge of the flotation lab.
Harris: At first. Then later on, Locken stopped being in charge and Elmer was. Elmer is a lot
like me, and if something had to be said, he said it. They had a big layoff in the late
fifties, and they fired Elmer. Hirshkind heard about it, and the same day he was re-hired
and came out to Western and we worked together. He was not in the flotation lab,
because the guys that fired him really had higher authority over the flotation lab, and
they fired Elmer.
Quivik: And Hirshkind rehired him to do what?
Harris: What he always did, reagent development.
Quivik: But in a different area.
Harris: He was back in Midland when he got fired, and then he came back.
Quivik: Oh, I see, so he came back to work in Pittsburgh?
Harris: Back to Walnut Creek. We had a Walnut Creek lab, too.
Quivik: That was another Dow lab. So Dairy 1 Anderson succeeded Locken as head of the— .
Harris: No, when they dumped Elmer, they hired a metallurgist. The name escapes me right
now, but that fellow quit Dow. He was outspoken, but he was good.
Quivik: I'm confused, when you say that he "took Elmer's place" do you mean when he went to
Midland?
Harris: Elmer moved to Midland when they moved the lab back to Midland.
Quivik: They moved the flotation lab to Midland, and Elmer went with it. Did Locken go with
it?
Harris: He had retired by then.
Quivik: And was Darryl Anderson part of that move?
Harris: He came later. They moved their lab back to Midland. Elmer didn't like their ineptitude
and let them know that they were pretty inept, so they decided to show him who was
boss, and Elmer got the can tied to him. Elmer moved back to Walnut Creek, so it had
to be after '62. After Elmer came back, they moved the lab to Walnut Creek.
Quivik: Did they continue the flotation lab in Midland?
62
Harris: They transferred it back out here. The man whose name I don't recall, when he quit they
sent Anderson out. He ran the lab, and he listened to people. He was replaced by a
fellow from Texas, a civil engineer.
Quivik: How did that affect your work?
[Begin Tape 8, Side A]
Quivik: So it must not have been nearly as convenient, when Elmer was no longer just across
the hall.
Harris: No, it wasn't.
Quivik: When both he and the flotation lab moved back out here, did you continue working with
him then?
Harris: Oh yes, but he was part of our research group, not the flotation lab. He'd been fired!
Quivik: Was he still working on flotation, though?
Harris: [laughter] Yes.
Quivik: Just under a different group?
Harris: Right. When that chemical engineer came, it was almost impossible to get anything
done. There was a very prominent—he lied and cheated to get where he did. But he got
to the top, president of the SME. Fuerstenau knows him, too. That guy, he killed the
mining business for Dow. He had a material called 5F, grinding aids. Grinding aids
cost the company a lot of money, but they never made a dime off of them. They
airmailed a plant down into Chile to make this stuff, but nobody ever used it. Last I
heard, there were a thousand drums of it, sitting in a warehouse in South Africa.
But Klimpel, when asked about the profits, he gave a large figure. The Texan was
amazed. Klimpel kept raising the ceiling on the profitability of it. They were pouring
most of the money they were making off of mining chemicals into this grinding aid
project. They weren't making anything off of it. Unless you were being snowed by
Klimpel, you figured it was a loser. So the middle management realized that all the
mining chemical business does is build up a big, fat budget for research, so they called it
quits.
Quivik: Who was Klimpel?
Harris: He got a top science rating, because he knew how to snow people.
Quivik: Who was he? Did he work for Dow?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Was he a research chemist like you?
63
Harris: No, he was a promoter.
Quivik: What part of the business did he work in?
Harris: Hmm.
Quivik: What was his first name?
Harris: Dick Klimpel.
Quivik: Was he a manager?
Harris: Yes, he managed something. Then he conned Dow into forming a joint chemical
reagent business. The reagents that he patented were worthless. One of them is being
sold by Scitech because they bought the patents. Dow and the steel company were joint
on this company. Dow said, if in five years they weren't making big bucks--. Klimple
said, oh, there's going to be millions and millions. If you said "wow," he'd know that he
had you on the hook, and he would elaborate even more.
Quivik: Did he work in the Pittsburg office?
Harris: No, he was back in Midland. Dow had a policy that you don't stay in a managerial spot
for more than five years, they keep moving. By the time a new guy had come along, he
would snow him. By the time the guy realized what a jerk he was, there would be a new
manager.
Quivik: You've talked about Hirshkind, anything else you want to say about him? He was in
charge of the overall lab in Pittsburg?
Harris: When Dow bought Great Western, they kept him on as research director.
Quivik: Was he a chemist, a metallurgist?
Harris: Well, he got his Ph.D. under Haber, the inventor of the ammonia process.
Quivik: Where was it that he did his Ph.D.?
Harris: Germany.
Quivik: Do you know what university?
Harris: The one where Haber was.
Quivik: Bob Olson?
Harris: Berkeley graduate. We worked together on this project, cockolene oxide. He was
doing something with uranium. He worked on anything engineering related, and he was
interested in flotation.
Quivik: Was he a research chemist?
64
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Did he have his own lab?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: So you and he were peers?
Harris: Yes, and the two years I was teaching in Ghana, he got a letter from the San Francisco
Opera about tickets. But the letter was addressed to Guy Harris at his address. That
way I kept my good seats.
Quivik: So you were a long time season ticket holder at the San Francisco Opera?
Harris: Yes, some years back I got a certificate for going thirty-five years.
Quivik: Did Bob Olson start work there after you did?
Harris: He came later.
Quivik: And Carl Williams?
Harris: He came with the San Francisco lab.
Quivik: What kind of work did he do?
Harris: He was a field man, but he would do lab work on customers' ores.
Quivik: So he worked closely with Elmer. [Harris nods] Then he went out into the field visiting
mining companies? [Harris nods] More than Elmer did? Or comparable?
Harris: You might say comparable. He got over to India. I met an Indian at the SME meeting,
and he asked about Carl.
Quivik: Did you work on projects with Carl?
Harris: Primarily Elmer.
Quivik: Was he in the same flotation lab?
Harris: Yes, John Locken was in charge. It was him, Elmer, Carl Williams, and Clarence
Zeuch.
Quivik: Did they all go off to Midland when they moved the lab there?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And did they all move back to Walnut Creek?
Harris: Yes.
65
Quivik: Clarence Zeuch, he was the other metallurgist.
Harris: Yes, they gave him an early retirement package. He went to work for Minerek.
Quivik: The competitor. When someone did that, did they have to sign a non-disclosure
agreement?
Harris: Whenever you go from one company to another, you have to sign something saying that
the ideas belong to the former company. Everywhere I worked, I had to sign one of
those.
Quivik: You mean each time you switched jobs, earlier in your career?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: You've mentioned Melvin Calvin, anything more you'd like to say about him?
Harris: Hirshkind gave up being research director, but he still had an office and came in. When
Calvin got the Nobel Laureate, Hirshkind put a little party on for Calvin in the company
cafeteria. One of the fellows said, "sure you come." Hirshkind came up to me to say it
was just a little party for Calvin, and I was so mad I could have spit. I picked up my
plate, and walked over to a table. Calvin came over and said, "come on back." I said no,
the doc told me he didn't want me. He said, "I want you." That was Calvin. Hirshkind
came up later and apologized.
Quivik: Let's turn our attention to your two years of teaching in Ghana. That was from 1962 to
1964. Can you describe how you came to do that in the first place?
Harris: One of our chemists quit and was teaching over there.
Quivik: Teaching where?
Harris: At the University of Ghana. He wrote to me to try to get some of the fellows to come
and teach. The professor who was the head of the department was English. The
professor was let go, and a Ghanaian became department head. So the English guys just
left, they didn't want to work for Torto.
Quivik: He was the Ghanaian professor?
Harris: Yes, Frank Torto. They needed people. So I asked all the liberals and they all said, "oh
yes, I'd love to. It's a very important thing to do, but I just can't make it at this time." So
the only person who went was this old conservative. All the fuzzy liberals had excuses
for doing nothing. I went, and I got notice in early July. All the other notices they had
sent out, the people had taken other jobs. If I didn't get hired, it didn't matter to me
because I already had my job at Dow. These other guys didn't have anywhere else to
go-
Quivik: Where did you get the notice from?
Harris: I got a telegram from the University of Ghana.
66
Quivik: Saying that you had been hired at the end of July, 1 962?
Harris: Yes. So we leased our house to a lieutenant colonel in the army, flew to England and
then to Ghana.
Quivik: Was it difficult to get a leave of absence from Dow to do that?
Harris: Well, I saw Heitz, my boss, and said I'm leaving. I didn't ask for one, but I got one.
They didn't want to lose me.
Quivik: Did you know at the outset how long you planned to spend in Ghana?
Harris: They gave me a leave of absence for up to two years. I thought I was going for one
year, but they wanted me to stay. My family came back after the first year.
Quivik: They stayed one year, and you stayed two years.
Harris: Yes. I went with the family up to Europe after the first year. I gave a paper in London
at the IUPAC meeting. Then I picked up the Mercedes and joined my family in
Cologne. My wife was visiting a cousin of hers. I dropped them off at the Frankfurt
airport, drove down to Stuttgart and dropped off my car. They took me to the motel.
The next morning I got on the plane for Ghana. You ever left your wife for nine
months?
Quivik: Not nine months, no. Seven weeks is the longest.
Harris: It seemed like a long time, nine months. I came back and I had wanted to go to
Timbuktu. I ended up going to the north of Nigeria. I spend a couple days in Kano and
caught the plane for Germany. I stopped in Cologne to see my wife's cousin who was in
the hospital with cancer. I saw him before he had to check out with the cancer.
Quivik: What kind of a university is the University of Ghana?
Harris: One of my friends asked what it was like, if it was like our high schools. I said that for
chemistry we had two levels. The general degree, for which you had to have the
equivalent of two A.B.s, and the special degree, which was like a B.S. We used a very
popular textbook of the time for the general, and for the special degree we used the
Pfizer and Pfizer. He said that was his textbook in college.
Quivik: Was this the only university in the whole country?
Harris: They had a technical university up in Kumasi. The Kwame Nkrumah Institute of
Science and Technology. We always referred to it as Sagafo Tech. That was the name
he gave himself, which means redeemer.
Quivik: Was it a full university with all the academic departments that you would expect?
Harris: Yes, we didn't offer Ph.D.'s, then. I gave them homework. Some didn't bother, some
did. Everything was based, as the English system, on the big June exams. I was told in
late September or early October to write up the exams for the work. I got corrected on
67
it, so I rewrote it, closer to what they wanted. Then they sent it to University of London,
and they had to approve it. We had a special relationship with London University to
make sure that our classes were equivalent.
Periodically, I would go up to the registrar's office, and they would go into the vault and
bring out my test. I was not to write down anything. We would go to make sure that we
were covering all the material in that big exam. It wouldn't be fair to the students to
give them a question that they hadn't been instructed in. At the last, if you were
covering something kind of out of line, the smart students knew it would be on the final.
Quivik: Did all the students have pretty good English?
Harris: English is the official language. The special degree class only had two students. One of
them, the guy was real smart, but lazy. I kept telling him that he had to go to Berkeley.
He was going to go to the University of London. But in the English system, I knew that
he would just do lab work and never have to work the mind. So I saw George Penetel
and laid down the line.
I said he was lazy and smart. He said he thought that they could straighten him out, tell
him to apply here. Tell him not to use you, and that way he'll get four references. He
came here and got his Ph.D. After the first semester, I said, "Tong, sign up for the senior
organic class, you'll have no problem."
At that time, Berkeley required you to take a set of placement exams. In countries like
India you get a nice grade if your uncle is a big honcho. Berkeley knows that, and
Indian transcripts— we don't pay any attention to them here. So I said, sign for the senior
organic. I said to take the 206. But they told him, because of the test, he couldn't take
it, he'd already had it.
Quivik: In other words, he had all that preparation already from the university in Ghana.
Harris: Yes, as far as organic was concerned, he had completed his first year graduate.
Quivik: The students that you taught in Ghana, did they come from public high schools, or
private schools, rural areas, urban areas?
Harris: I don't know. But they were all in their late 20s. When the family had the money, the
oldest boy would go to school. When they didn't have the money, he wouldn't be going
to school. Apparently, secondary school can be off and on.
Quivik: How were the facilities at the university then? Did they have good lab facilities and
classroom facilities and so on?
Harris: Good classroom facilities, the lab equipment--
[Begin Tape 8, Side B]
Quivik: OK, the classroom facilities?
68
Harris: They were a little better than the other regional university I went to. A year later, Dow
paid my way back to a West African Science Association meeting in Sierra Leone. I
went and visited a lecturer from the university in Nigeria. I met a fellow from the
University of Michigan, he had taken a leave of absence for a year and was teaching
over there. He said his bright students had nothing to work with. He gave them exams,
not British-style but Michigan-style, and he said that if they were at Michigan they
would pass with honors. He said an old simple UV spectrophotomoter is the only
equipment they had. We were slightly better than that.
Quivik: Where did you and your family live while you were there?
Harris: We had a nice hut. Hardwood floors, bath and a half, electric stove, daily garbage
collection, and it was right next to the vice-chancellor's place. It was a nice "hut."
Quivik: How about food and cooking, and that sort of thing?
Harris: Well, an electric stove and a servant. He did the cooking.
Quivik: African food or American food?
Harris: English! A little American; my daughter Mary made sure that he did it right.
Quivik: Did you learn to eat some Ghanaian foods that you liked?
Harris: Oh yes, in cold weather we have Ghanaian stew. I cook it. We don't have crab, but we
use canned tuna.
Quivik: What's in Ghanaian stew?
Harris: Well, it has okra, tomatoes, and a certain amount of peppers, chili. They love the hot
stuff. Well, most of them do.
Quivik: Those are the main ingredients. That sounds like it isn't terribly unusual. Did you
encounter any really unusual foods there?
Harris: One place made doughnuts. They cooked it in coconut oil. At first it was weird, but
when we came back there were no places to get doughnuts cooked in coconut oil. You
kind of get acclimated.
Quivik: What other sorts of unusual experiences did you have in Ghana?
Harris: We had a friend, she's still alive, she's 98. She's from Cincinnati, and she stopped by to
see us. We borrowed our friend's car, and went up to Kamasi. The next day, we went
up to the dam. The Volta river dam was supervised by Kaiser Engineering. The
contractor was an Italian outfit. So the road signs were in English and Italian. We were
taking our friend to the dam, and we had to stop at this roadblock. Someone had lobbed
a grenade into the car of the dictator, so they had flown in specialist doctors from
London. They worked on him about eighteen hours, getting fragments out. He sealed
off the city of Accra. There was no way you could seal it off. If I had wanted to, I could
have just walked off to the side.
69
Normally, they would stop us at this road block and ask if we had any bombs, and we
would say no. But this time, the police commissioner was there, with his little stick,
British style. The only difference between then and when it was a British colony was
that the police commissioner's skin was white.
They had to check, and our friend was not about to be searched. She got arguing, and
the police commissioner said, "You're a Ghana man, can you do something to that
woman?" I said, "No, I knew her husband when he was alive, and he couldn't do
anything with that woman." Finally, she let them look in her purse. I can still see that
old black policewoman, holding her hand, they were afraid of that vicious white
woman.
We went out to the dam, where there was a hotel. You could get something to eat or
drink, and it overlooked the construction of the dam. The dam was a concrete wall, and
then the earth fill would keep the wall erect. It was cheaper than a big concrete one.
When I first went there, we would be going up to the dam and we'd pass a bridge across
the Volta river. Some Ghanaians were really impressed by the bridge, and they really
wanted us to see it. A Ghanaian friend of mine, who did a post-doc, at UCLA, had seen
the Golden Gate Bridge and the Bay Bridge. He said, "Don't bother going up there; it's
just a regular bridge." Because he knew what a big bridge was.
We got up to see some of the old forts. At one fort, we saw the secret entranceway
where the Dutch governor had quarters up above. The more attractive black slaves to be
exported would go up and take care of the Dutch governor at night.
Quivik: What would you say was the--? What did you learn from that experience? How did
that experience change you?
Harris: Well, we weren't racist. If we were, we wouldn't have gone. I don't pay particular
attention to a person being black. They put on a Gilbert and Sullivan program at a
secondary school in Ghana, and I went down to see it. There was a Canadian
schoolteacher professing his great love for a black student. It was well into the program
that a song came, and all of a sudden it dawned on me, that would really be a real thing
to do here, because the Canadian is white and the student is black. But I didn't even
notice.
Quivik: Were there any changes that the experience of living in a developing country brought
about in you after spending your life in the lap of luxury in the United States?
Harris: I mentioned our hut, what a nice dwelling we had. I picked up a hitchhiker, one of our
students, and we talked a little bit and he realized I was okay. He said he'd like for me
to meet his folks. We pulled off in this little village, and there was a dirt floor and all.
The people were very gracious.
I had a carving, it's since been stolen, about two feet tall from ebony wood. It's of a
priestess in ecstasy. It was carved by Dr. Ampofo, an M.D. We used to go out and get
eggs from him. He's gone now. We have a nice double-deck Ashanti stool given to me
by one of the paramount chiefs. I was visiting him, and I met his daughter in Paris. As
I had said, I had given a talk in London. I was wearing a little tie, and it was made out
of kinte cloth. One of the speakers from Togo noticed it and said that his wife was from
70
Ghana. He was living in Paris. I said that we were going to Paris so he gave me his
address so we had African food in Paris.
Quivik: Are there people you met in Ghana whom you still see or correspond with?
Harris: Well, a couple years back we got a phone call from a friend. Her son got his Ph.D. here,
and was teaching at a community college. I told her that I would pay her airfare from
Los Angeles, so she came up and spent five days with us. It turns out, they were five of
her last days. A few weeks after she left us, we got a phone call from her son that her
body was riddled with cancer and she didn't last.
Our friend, the vice-chancellor of the University of Ghana, he came by and visited us a
few times.
Quivik: What's his name?
Harris: Aje Bekway, or Daniel. They have an English and a Ghanaian name.
Quivik: Did the experience you had teaching in Ghana have any effect on your work once you
went back to Dow?
Harris: I don't think so; I just got back to the grind.
Quivik So once you went back to Dow, you started to do your research chemistry again,
working on more projects?
Harris: They drive on the right side of the road now, but when we were there, it was the left
side.
Quivik: The British side.
Harris: I came home, and my boss, Bob Heitz, said I could use his car. I was toodling around
the left hand side of the road. Someone came around the corner, and I thought he was a
damned fool. Then I realized, I was wrong and I got over on the right-hand side. Thank
God I didn't wreck the boss's car.
Quivik: After you got back to this country, at some point you started teaching at JFK
University?
Harris: Yes, I was the head of the science faculty. We only had one department.
Quivik: When did you start that?
Harris: It was about '65 or '66.
Quivik: Can you describe what JFK University is?
Harris: They were going to build a regular campus in Concord. When I was with them, their
property consisted of a former mortuary in Martinez. We had six graduates, and the
first one is a multi-millionaire now, more than I can say for myself. He graduated with
71
honors, and he has his own consulting business now. After he got his degree, Dow gave
him professional status. He was working in an environmental deal. Then they sent
some guy out from Midland whose only qualification was that his wife was from some
big-shot family. We had a civil engineer for our mining group, and Dave was ticked off
and I don't blame him. He got a job with IT, the group that cleans up highway chemical
spills and stuff. So he's the de facto CEO of IT, not the real one. "IT" stands for
Industrial Technology, or something.
Quivik: Who was Dave?
Harris: Dave Bauer. Our first graduate.
Quivik: Was JFK just getting started when you began to teach there?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: What kind of a university was it? Who was starting it?
Harris: Harry Morrison had a big dream. He had a problem getting accreditation because he
was the president.
Quivik: Who was he?
Harris: He had started a savings and loan that had almost gone bankrupt. The accreditation
people said that a science department really isn't the right thing for the nature of your
school. They insisted the science department be part of the Social Studies, and then
they were going to shut it down. I wasn't told anything, because Harry was too
embarrassed. We had a doroganic lab. We used Alhambra High School. We bought
some kits, and I wouldn't take any person as a student unless they were a lab tech. I
knew we could give good lecture courses, but the lab was kind of weak. I ran the
doroganic, and I was satisfied that our experiments were suitable. I don't believe in
phony baloney degrees.
Quivik: What was the purpose of this university? What was Morrison's dream?
Harris: I don't know. It was an evening school that gave people a chance to get a college
education.
Quivik: How did you get hooked up with it?
Harris: Well, one of the fellows lived nest door to Harry. They needed someone to get a
science program going. I objected, but they talked me into it.
Quivik: Did you do that as extra work, in addition to the full-time work you were doing at Dow?
Did Dow let you do it on their time?
Harris: If I did any on their time, they had no choice.
Quivik: How large was the student body when it got started? A dozen students?
72
Harris: About a dozen students, for chemistry.
Quivik: Did they call it a university then?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: But it had less than a hundred students then?
Harris: A couple hundred.
Quivik: Did it give a bachelor's degree? [Harris nods] The students were working during the
day and this was a night school opportunity.
Harris: They have a law school, and a lot of lawyers around got their degree from Kennedy.
Quivik: How long did you teach there?
Harris: About five or six years.
Quivik: Did the chemistry class always meet in a high school lab classroom?
Harris: I gave a lecture class and a lab class. In the lecture class, the first three hour class I ever
had, I ran out of material in two hours on paper, but I had it up here and kept going.
They didn't even notice.
Quivik: Have you done any other teaching besides the University of Ghana and JFK?
Harris: Mercy College.
Quivik: Since the sixties, I should say.
Harris: No.
73
[Interview 4: October 4, 2001] [Begin Tape 9, Side A]
Quivik: [laughter] This is Fred Quivik again. It's October 3, and we're at the Bancroft Library,
and we're continuing the oral history with Guy Harris. Thank you Guy, it's~
Harris: It's the fourth.
Quivik: It's October 4, yes. Thank you.
Harris: Tuesday was my birthday.
Quivik: Oh! Happy birthday. Yes, it's October 4, and we're at the Bancroft Library, and
continuing the oral history with Guy Harris. Good morning, Guy.
Harris: Guten Tag, mein Herr.
Quivik: [chuckles] When we left off, I had asked you a question and the tape ran out. So I'm
going to ask you that question again. Not counting your teaching with the Sisters of
Mercy in Burlingame, we talked, then, at the end of last session about your teaching in
Ghana and your teaching with JFK University. Is that the only teaching that you did
while you were working at Dow?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Yes. Okay, great. Now, I'd like to take a diversion before we get back to your
professional activities late in your career, and talk about some of your personal life. We
left off with you and Elsie marrying in 1940 and I'd like to review, on tape, your— the
development of your family.
First of all, do you have children?
Harris: Four.
Quivik: Four. And can you tell me their names and when they were born?
Harris: Alice Ann was bom in '41. Robert Harris was born in '45, and Mary Harris was born in
either '46 or '47. And Sara was born in '51.
Quivik: Four children, and are any of them living near you now?
Harris: Sara is living with us and-since my wife is handicapped, it's pretty convenient because
without her, I would not be able to go any—to go on any trips. I would not have been
able to go to China in '98. And I wouldn't be able to take the graduate theology classes
back at the Franciscan university in Steubenville. It's someone— my wife can fairly well
take care of herself [chuckles] but not quite, and—.
Quivik: Let's talk about those years of your children growing up. Can you think about some
aspects of your being their father that come to mind?
74
Harris: Oh, I was very anti-Catholic for the first forty years of our marriage. And when Alice
started school, the teacher was very anti-Catholic and when she would go to catechism,
I refer to it as brainwash [laughter], and she'd make Alice stay after school, and also a
friend of hers that happened to be Catholic—made them stay after school so they would
miss out going to the religious training. And that irked me because I wasn't that keen
on them going to catechism, but I thought that was a family affair and not the teacher's
business.
Quivik: This was a public school?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And where were you living then?
Harris: Richmond.
Quivik: Richmond.
Harris: We lived in Richmond until we moved to Concord in '52. And I think we mentioned
my working at Padco so we got the date when we came out and bought the house in
Richmond.
Quivik: So Alice would have been around nine or ten when this was taking place?
Harris: Yes, we moved there in '45. Robert wasn't one year old yet, when we moved there.
And Mary was born in Richmond, and Sara was born in Richmond.
Quivik: Well, let's get some context here. You say you were anti-Catholic, and Elsie, on the
other hand, was a devout Catholic.
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: So during those early years of your marriage, how did you maintain that aspect of your
relationship?
Harris: For Elsie, it wasn't easy, [pause] Are we still in Richmond, or--?
Quivik: Yes.
Harris: Okay, I had to drive from Richmond— when I went to Dow after one year, five months
with Padco I had to drive on the old Highway Four, which took offjust north-just east
of Pinole, and it's two-lane all the way, and it went over Willow Pass, crawled up. And
in foggy weather, it was-it was a pain in the neck driving, and when you'd have a truck
creeping along and you're car number thirty-seven, and there are others behind you, it
was very frustrating. When I went to work for Dow, my lab bench, the top was wood-
two-by-twelves on sawhorses, and~
Quivik: You mentioned that last time.
Harris: Oh, I did?
75
Quivik: Yes.
Harris: Okay.
Quivik: How long did it take you to drive to work?
Harris: Oh, gosh. I—
Quivik: From Richmond?
Harris: Over—about an hour and a half.
Quivik: Wow. Why did you live in Richmond?
Harris: Because that's where we bought our first house when I worked at Padco, down in
Emeryville.
And then when I got the job at Dow, my wife—she liked Richmond. She had friends
and there's a corner grocery store around the corner, and she could walk to-she and her
mother, who lived with us, they could walk to church and they didn't have to put up
with my [chuckles] comments about having to take them.
Quivik: And so, despite your anti-Catholic sentiments, Elsie went to church regularly?
Harris: Oh, yes. Yes.
Quivik: And she and her mother-and then as your children were growing up, did Elsie take all
of your children to church as well?
Harris: When they ceased to be a nuisance in church, she would leave them home with me.
And when they're old enough to behave properly, she would take them to church with
her. So Alice used to go with her and I think Robert went while we were in Richmond
because he was born in '45, and we moved in '51. Yes, he still stayed home. So I took
care of him. That was fairly convenient for Elsie.
Quivik: Yes. Do you remember what street you lived on in Richmond?
Harris: Burbeck.
Quivik: And do you remember the name of the Catholic church in Richmond?
Harris: Saint Mark's. And then they built a new one-Saint Cornelius.
Quivik: And did they build the new one while you were there?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: So that's the church, then, that Elsie, and her mother, and Alice went to?
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Harris: Supposedly, but they say that they went to Saint Mark's because it was close, so they
could walk.
Quivik: And so, the public school teacher kept Alice after school so she couldn't go to religious
education?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And you thought that was improper because that should be a family matter?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Can you describe your thinking a little bit further on that subject? In other words, you
were an anti-Catholic but you wanted the decision of your daughter's religious
education left up to the family?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Can you elaborate a little bit?
Harris: Well, I didn't think it was any of that teacher's business. And it wasn't up to her to
guide my daughter's religious education or lack of religious education.
Quivik: And so what was the result of that episode?
Harris: I don't remember. Elsie and her friend, I think, raised a stink, and the teacher did come
out-she had tenure, so she could get away with her nonsense. She came out to Concord
and the principal tried to build her up, but it wasn't very effective, and they kept her as a
teacher for one year.
Quivik: In Concord? So she moved to Concord. Was that about the same time that you folks
moved?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Was that just a coincidence?
Harris: Yes, coincidence.
Quivik: And was she a teacher for the school where your children were going to school?
Harris: Yes, but Alice didn't have her as a teacher.
Quivik: How was it that you knew that that was the teacher's intent— that she was keeping Alice
after school so that she wouldn't go to religious education?
Harris: Oh! It was quite obvious because she wouldn't keep her after school any other days of
the week. You didn't have to be a space scientist to draw the picture, [chuckles]
Quivik: And what was the excuse for keeping Alice after school?
77
Harris: Oh, I don't know. She could always cook up some excuse-that Alice had talked, or—I
don't—this was, that was about sixty years ago, so I don't remember.
Quivik: So then you moved to Concord, and did you move to your present house?
Harris: Yes. You were there.
Quivik: Yes, I've been there. And did you build that house?
Harris: Yes. We had it built, yes.
Quivik: Was it— did you have an architect design it, or was it part of a housing development?
Harris: Well, the contractor built all the houses but one on the street. And he had a draftsman or
architect design the house. And I think my wife got in what she liked and didn't like,
and so it's— our house's floor plan is like next door to us, where our contractor had built.
On my left side, next door, are two bedrooms and we have three, and then had a
bedroom behind the garage. Elsie's mother was living with us, and four children. The
house in Richmond was very small.
Quivik: What's the name of your street in Concord?
Harris: Georgia Drive.
Quivik: Do you remember any of the particular details of the house that were designed
especially for you, that Elsie wanted?
Harris: Oh. [pause] The house next door is— has an entry, a little entry hall, and we do too, but
we have two doors between the bathroom and that entry hall, whereas the other didn't
have it. And our kitchen is longer than theirs as my wife wanted to have more room in
the kitchen because that's where we lived. And then the garage was built a little larger
because she wanted adequate space for the washing machine and all.
Quivik: Do you remember the name of the contractor?
Harris: Bud Hanson. We could have gotten a cheaper contractor but we lived in Richmond and
we couldn't be there watching everything. And her elder brother commented, "Gosh,
he could do anything he wants. And you're not there to keep an eye on him." And I told
him, Elsie's brother, that the contractor is more expensive but we could depend on him.
We didn't have to worry about any sleazy work.
Quivik: Then, in Richmond, all your children went to public schools?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: What kind of neighborhood was that that you lived in, in terms of children growing up?
Were there a lot of other families with children there?
Harris: This is Richmond?
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Quivik: No, in Concord.
Harris: Oh, yes. Yes. Almost everybody on the street had children, except the Swedish couple.
And very few children on the street now. You really get to know everybody when you
have children, but people move in, we don't even know their names. And they'll live
there five years, and move out. We still don't know their names.
Quivik: But during the fifties, you knew them all through your children?
Harris: Oh, yes.
Quivik: Was there a nearby Catholic church that Elsie attended?
Harris: Yes. There's one downtown. Maybe I had calmed down some. But she went to the
church downtown. And then they had a new parish and it's over on the next street.
Two of the classrooms, or maybe four of the school, or the sanctuary, while that was
being built, services were held at the Elks Club.
Quivik: What's the name of that parish?
Harris: Saint Agnes.
Quivik: And is it within a few blocks?
Harris: It's about three hundred yards from us, except it's a three-quarter-of-a-mile drive
because of no streets going through—cross streets.
Quivik: Did Elsie and the children walk to church then? Now, you say you'd calmed down.
Does that mean in terms of your anti-Catholicism?
Harris: Yes, and well, I wasn't just anti-Catholic. I thought religion was a bunch of baloney. I
belonged to a— had belonged to the Masons, and being Mason, you're supposed to
believe in God. And I felt guilty about belonging to the Masons because I didn't
believe in God. One of my heroes was a very interesting man, he wrote some, what I
considered then, simply smashing letters blasting religion.
Quivik: Who was that?
Harris: Oh, God. It will come to me. But he was an internationally known pharmacologist and
earlier on, he stood in front of his parish and said, "This is the last day you'll hear me
here because I can't preach what I don't believe." And he was an ordained Lutheran
pastor. You're a Lutheran, aren't you?
Quivik: Yes. Okay, [laughter] So he had been a Lutheran pastor, and then left the church, and
started writing material against religious belief?
Harris: Oh, yes, yes. At one time he was the president of the American Association for
Advancement of Science. He was a very good scholar. I don't remember now, his
objections but I thought that was really great.
79
Quivik: Now, in those days did you consider yourself an atheist or an agnostic?
Harris: Well, it would depend upon the weather, [chuckles]
Quivik: And what were the roots of your beliefs, then? The origins? Had you grown up always
being a non-believer or did you develop those attitudes in your college years?
Harris: Well, last April—not this year, last year— we celebrated our sixtieth wedding anniversary
and the twentieth anniversary of my baptism. So, I was unbaptized until twenty years
ago so I didn't belong to any church. My dad was Catholic. My mother was Dutch
Reform, and her first husband dissipated a lot of her inheritance. She inherited— had a
good inheritance. And he spent it surreptitiously on another woman. My mother finally
woke up to the fact, and she divorced him. That was almost a hundred years ago, and
divorce was a no-no. And ironical, the woman that her husband was cavorting around
with, when my mother dumped her pseudo-lover, she dropped him and went with her
lover that she'd had all along. So she's playing both ends. And the only reason she
bothered with my mother's first husband was for the money.
Quivik: So, in your upbringing, you weren't brought up in either church-either Catholic or
Dutch Reform?
Harris: No.
Quivik: And, in your younger years, did you see any kind of relationship between your
profession as a scientist and your anti-religious beliefs?
Harris: Well, I'll skip that for a moment. When in early teens, I think I mentioned my dad's
having a problem with employment.
And I think I mentioned the man who got my dad a job over at an industrial ice machine
company. He asked my mother-he said he'd like for us to go to the Baptist church
where he went. So, my mother was so grateful for the job that she said yes. So we, my
sisters and I, went to the Baptist church there, and I didn't mind the summer Bible
school, the pastor's commenting that-about Jesus was giving his life for us, and that
everything we had took a life. When we ate bread, the wheat seed lost its life, and when
we had meat, the animal or the bird lost its life. Even eggs-a potential chicken lost its
life. "Not if the egg isn't fertile!" So he put me over with the kids who were shooting
spit-wads, and that really irked me. That kind of soured me on-.
I remember once going with my mother to the Presbyterian church. It was the in church
and I was very young and, as I mentioned before, very insecure, but I was happy to be
there because I was associating with "big shots"-- a silly reason for going to church, but
I'm sure other people have silly reasons.
[Begin Tape 9, Side B]
Harris: I had a-when I was a junior at Berkeley, I'd gone to church a few times with the family
that took care of the house where I lived, the five-story building. I remember standing
outside of the church and wondering, what's the purpose, what's the real meaning of
life? And I didn't know, but I wondered, and—.
80
Quivik: And when you were teaching the nurses in training for the Sisters of Mercy, did you
have any religious discussions with them?
Harris: Oh, oh, no. [chuckling] No, no. I had my Masonic ring on, and it didn't bother them.
They believed the same old— I'll keep it clean— [laughter]--that Elsie did, and so--. I
didn't bother, and they didn't bother me. There were five nuns in the class; one is alive
today, and she's been to the house a few times.
Quivik: In the early years of your relationship with Elsie, did her Christian faith and your anti-
religious feelings cause some serious friction in your relationship?
Harris: Well, no, because I didn't want her to dump me. [laughter] And we'd go— as I had
mentioned, I was a junior at Cal when I met her, and she-after two semesters, the
spring and fall semesters, she had her general secondary [credential], and started
teaching. It was substitute teaching because in those days, only men got permanent
jobs. They had families, they needed it. And we would go out to the beach. We'd take
the streetcar, for five cents [chuckle], and we'd go to the zoo. We enjoyed each other's
company. And I would go over to see her, and I— she'd have a lot of the homework
from the class, to correct it—not do but correct. So I would help her, and organize
things, and get it done so we could go somewhere.
I taught her to use a slide-rule so she could make grades and decide where, which line
"C" became "B" and a "B" became an "A". The principal came in to her, and it was a
Jewish family, and her daughter had goofed off. The mother wanted the daughter to go
to college, wanted a college recommendation grades. So Elsie pulls out her slide-rule
and showed [laughter]— and the principal, he didn't know to use a slide-rule. So they
were impressed with Elsie. Well, he was, and—but the mother wasn't impressed with
that teacher gave her daughter a "C".
Quivik: So then in the— as your children were growing up, would you say that religious topics
were just sort of on the back burner? Or how— did you engage in them with your family,
or-?
Harris: Oh, my daughter Mary— we'd come home, back from Ghana, and I'd come back, and
Mary was going to junior college. She said to her mother one day, "Boy, that
philosophy class at Diablo Valley is really great. You get your head screwed on right."
She said, "I don't believe in that religious baloney anymore." And I wanted to go,
"Yeah!" but I knew that Elsie would take her disappointment out on me because the
children-your children are on loan to you, but your wife isn't, nor your husband. So I
would be the fall guy, besides I'd helped indoctrinate her in her unbelief. It's ironical
how she was visiting us about ten years ago, and she, commenting on her unbelief, and
said, "Dad, you taught me well." And by this time I had come to the Lord, and it hurt,
but it's the truth. You can't deny the truth.
Quivik: Right.
Harris: And a few years ago she came back to the church, but she's a doer and she wanted to get
involved with the church programs. Our committee— "We got all the people we need.
We got this, we don't need-. We got all we need." And they brushed her off. And you
don't brush Mary off.
81
She's hiking one day and it had gotten dark. She slipped and fell down eight feet into a
ditch, and broke both legs. And she crawled up on her elbows to the edge of the road,
and a couple men came by. One of them said, "I think there's someone laying down the
side of the road." They turned around and, sure enough, there's Mary. They got her to
the hospital. Her 91 1--I don't remember the details. And the two brothers belonged to
the Mennonite church. Mary is a Mennonite today. I know we've mentioned this to our
Catholic friends. Oh, I tell them we don't care. As long as she knows Jesus, it doesn't
matter because he's "the way, the truth, and the light."
Quivik: That's a nice story. Well, let's just hear a brief summary, then, of what each of your
children did in adulthood, if you can say. Did they go to college, for instance, and-?
Harris: Alice was a CSF Sealbearer.
Quivik: And what's that?
Harris: Oh, you didn't have children in school here, in high school here.
Quivik: No, no.
Harris: It's the California Scholastic Federation, and you have to have at least three "A'"s and a
"B." If you got a "C," you're out. Alice was a CSF Sealbearer and one of the
counselors told Alice she wasn't college material. Phi Beta Kappa is the honor
fraternity, but Phi Kappa Phi is, too. She went to UOP and they didn't have Phi Beta
Kappa. They had Phi Kappa Phi and she was elected to Phi Kappa Phi.
Quivik: And where was that?
Harris: UOP. [University of the Pacific in Stockton.] So she made a national honor fraternity.
She had quite a few honors there. She graduated from UOP with high honors. Yes, she
wasn't college material, [chuckles]
Quivik: [chuckles] And--?
Harris: Then Robert, he— when we were in Ghana, Robert and Sara went to the international
school there. And Mary had a problem with trigonometry and she got— repeated it and
still got a "D." So she didn't want-she would have to take that. So the English system
is somewhat different from ours. Here, you can select classes in high school, but there
you don't. While the whole system you didn't. Robert had taken Spanish but all they
had was Latin and French. You couldn't-if you're in the sixth form, you can't take
beginning French. The only language available to you is sixth form French. So, Robert
dropped the language but he took all the rest, the math and so on.
Mary didn't want to go to the school so we didn't make her. She was taking the
required courses in U.S. history by correspondence from U.C. Extension. U.C.
Extension is not just college, it's also high school. And she was able to take this
required course. Every summer our kids had gone, taken classes. So when she came
back-it was her junior year— as far as the fact that she had taken her junior year in
Ghana-. So Mary, when it came to graduation time, she had, because of the summer
school credits—she had met all her requirements but one for graduation. She didn't have
82
senior physical ed. And they were, "She's going to have to come back the following
year, just for one class." Physical ed. And she told them what they could do with it.
[chuckling] She says, "I'll be eighteen in September and the junior college has to take
me. So I'll just go out there and start junior college." So they back-pedalled and waived
the requirement and she got her high school diploma, and the only one from the official
junior class to graduate! [laughter]
Quivik: And where did she go to junior college?
Harris: Diablo Valley.
Quivik: Diablo Valley?
Harris: Yes. And then she went to UCLA and she dropped out her senior year, not because of
grades, because she was doing okay, but she got married, [laughter] And Robert, who's
older than her, when he came back, he started at Diablo Valley. I refer to it as Pacheco
Tech. [chuckle]
Quivik: Why do you call it that?
Harris: Because the old town, the historical town of Pacheco is there. So Robert got sucked
into the draft. He went to the communications school and the first six months if he had
dropped out, if he didn't make the top level, they would— he'd gotten enough training
that you could get a field transmitter receiver and you'd be out in the field over in
Vietnam with that. And if you made it to the second, then you were working with more
sophisticated equipment and back. If you completed the third, the most difficult, you're
over here, or you weren't in Vietnam.
He completed [laughter] the third and he ended up going to Vietnam and he was at the
communications center there because he—this is several years later, and is the tail end of
the Vietnam War. He spent time in— oh— . When he completed the third term at the
school in New Jersey, they sent him to Korea. And the communications center he was
at was right on the border. The bureaucrats back in D.C. had plans, instructions, what
they were to do if the North Koreans started coming over. But they had their own plan.
Their own plan was to grab your knapsack and stuff, run out to the Jeep, get in, lob
some hand grenades through the window and get the hell out! [laughter] They heard that
the life of a POW [Prisoner of War] in North Korea was not a happy one. He was in for
twenty-one years.
Quivik: In the army?
Harris: Yes. Funny thing, the captain didn't like Robert's attitude about something, so he went
and complained to the colonel. Well, the colonel says, "Well, Captain, what did
sergeant Harris say?" "Oh, he didn't say anything, but his attitude-mat's all. Well,
yes." And the colonel said, "Captain, Sergeant Harris is doing a damn good job. You
leave him alone. That is an order." Robert found out about it because the typewriter
jockeys outside the door heard the conversation, and told him. [laughter] So the
captain's hands were tied. He couldn't do anything to Robert because when you're
given an order, a command is a command. Were you in the military?
83
Quivik: No.
Harris: Oh, well-. And when he retired, he was at Scott Air Base, and he was at his desk,
doing the paper shuffling, and he had his uniform all neat, and pressed, and all. The
next day he was a civilian, same desk, civilian clothes, doing the same job. [laughter]
Quivik: So he continued working for the army?
Harris: Yes. And Sara, she applied to just one school and we got her to apply to another. Her
counselor said, "You don't have to do that. She's going to get into Cal." And she got—I
don't know whether they have the program now, but they did then— she got admission
with honors. I wanted her to go into science or engineering and she wanted music. So,
she threw the sop to old Dad. She minored in math and she beat out the Chinese-
Americans, [chuckles] She went beyond the minimum required for a minor. She
majored in music.
Quivik: Music performance, music history, music theory?
Harris: Gee, I don't know. She~this was when all that Free Speech Movement was going on
and we were down here, real hippy looking guys going by, "Hello, Sara! How are you?"
She was always neatly dressed. BART [Bay Area Rapid Transit] wasn't running when
she was here, and she'd take the bus down College and get off at where College ends by
the art school, and catch the bus, a Greyhound bus, out. The—one of the buses she
caught was a commute bus, and it dropped someone off there, and they couldn't tell her,
"Don't get on." And she's sitting next to this business man, and, "Hey, what are all
these books for?" She said, "Oh, I'm going to Cal." "You, going to Cal?" The hippy
type dress was a common garb at Cal and Sara refused to go as a hippy, [chuckle]
When they got the vote while— eighteen years old got the vote while she was here, and
my comment is, she's one of the six Republicans registered in Berkeley, [laughter] I
don't know how many, but it's a good story.
Quivik: [laughter] So she graduated from here as a music major?
Harris: Yes, with high honors.
Quivik: And does she work in music now?
Harris: Oh, yes. She's been teaching for years.
Quivik: Teaching what?
Harris: Piano.
Quivik: Giving private lessons, or at a school?
Harris: Yes, private lessons. And right now she's working for her master's in a program for
teaching children with learning disabilities. It's a special program. Her specialty will
be one that is very limited because they've had a problem getting a teacher or mentor
with math.
84
Quivik: Yes.
Harris: And Sara is--if she gets an "A-minus," she's flunking. She's gotten all "A" 's. The
program is out of Holy Names and she'll get a master's, but she's also got two or three
certificates, state certificates, from UC Santa Cruz. They have classes at Sunnyvale and
some of the classes at Holy Names are also offered here on the campus. So she's taking
as many as she can get away with but they limit it because they want the tuition money.
Quivik: And where's Holy Names located?
Harris: As you go down 13, you get down around where the Mormon Temple is, it's on the east
side—you're going down your left hand side—.
Quivik: In Oakland?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: How long has she been living with you and Elsie?
Harris: All her life.
Quivik: Really? And, that entire time helping with Elsie's disability?
Harris: Well, it's only the past five, ten years that Elsie's been handicapped.
Quivik: And can you say what that is?
Harris: She had a knee replacement and the guy— well-known specialist—did a crummy job, and
he didn't check-. We were told by a specialist in Walnut Creek about twenty-seven
percent of the orthopedic surgeons really do a decent check up on that. So she had it
done again, and he couldn't understand why he had the x-ray— there's the other knee
done by just one of the local guys, perfectly fine, and his job all— the knee was just a
mess. When he finished the operation, the x-ray looked fine but he never bothered to
see what the knee did when she was walking.
Quivik: So she has a hard time getting around now?
Harris: Yes. She uses a walker, and a wheelchair, and I had those hernia operations. I don't
know when I'll be able to lift the wheelchair, but if we go to a restaurant, she needs a
wheelchair, and we go to church, she needs a wheelchair. Since my operation, Sara's
been going to church and she can handle a wheelchair.
Quivik: Do you have any grandchildren?
Harris: Two. The young lady graduated magna cum laude from Amherst, the number one
liberal arts school in the country. Her brother is dyslexic, and that's what got our
daughter Sara interested in children with learning disabilities.
Quivik: Whose children are they, your grandchildren?
85
Harris: Alice's. And the two are it
Quivik: Where do they live?
Harris: Monterey. Our grandson should get his B.S. in computer science in December.
Quivik: Great.
[Begin Tape 10, Side A]
Quivik: Well, during those years that your children were growing up, then, you remained a non-
religious person, if not an anti-religious person. And then you said that about twenty
years ago, you were baptized. Can you describe your—conversion experience, we'll
say?
Harris: Well, Alice came up with our grandson and she saw her mother and said, "I'm
concerned about Dad's unsaved condition and I might talk to him." And Elsie said,
"Well, he's your dad." In other words, you know him, and if you want to stick your
neck out-but it turned out that she had wanted to speak when she was confirmed as a
teenager, when she graduated from high school, when she graduated from college, and
when she got married, but the Lord was with her because I would have just cussed her
out. But at this time, when she was talking to me, I'd seen—my wife had gone to this
Protestant, non-denominational Bible Study Fellowship for five years and it made a big
change in Elsie's life because she finally knew Jesus. Up to then, all she knew was
Catholicism. Alice had gone five years and made a tiger for Jesus out of her, so they
talked. And I said, "Well, I'll do something." "What, Dad?" "Oh-" This is December.
I said—
Quivik: What year?
Harris: Twenty years ago.
Quivik: About 1980?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Okay.
Harris: So, I said I'll start Bible Study Fellowship in September. Of course it would give me
nine months to come to my senses because I'd get these urges on religion, then I'd wise
up and--. But, when September came, I went. There were four hundred men going over
in Walnut Creek and I went early in the evening to make sure I didn't get on the waiting
list. I hate waiting lists, [chuckles] So, [pause] the speaker-you do homework, then
they have discussion group because four hundred men can't discuss their homework.
Well, the speaker said, "This year we're studying the exciting book of Genesis." I
thought, "Oh, God, not the fairy stories," but I stayed. I was quitting when we got to the
flood because where does the water come from? The ocean. How can it come from the
ocean, come from mountains and come from the ocean when it originally came? I was
quitting and something told me, "Don't get lost in the nitty-gritty details. Look for the
teaching, the message." So I stayed.
86
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Quivik:
Harris:
Elsie had been going to a Bible study group at a neighboring parish. A lady used to
come down from, over from Clayton and get her but the lady couldn't—this particular
day—couldn't take her, come get her. So Sara took her mother and when the Bible study
was over, one of the ladies said, "I need a ride-anyone here live in Concord?" "Oh, yes,
yes. My daughter will take you." [chuckle] So, the lady said, "Does your daughter take
you every day, every time?" And Alice— Sara said, "No." Elsie said, "No," and that—
what the deal was, this lady would come and this new lady said, "Well, gosh. That's a
lot out of her way, and I live on the way. I could pick you up." So Elsie started going
with this lady.
This lady said, "Well, the prayer group down in the neighboring parish, you ought to
come to it." And, "Oh," Elsie— her new friend said, "Well, they pray for you, and you
need the healing for that bad knee." So she started going, and then one night, Elsie said,
"Do you want to go?" And for some strange reason, I said, "Yes." Then on the way
down, I was thinking, "Oh, God, what am I doing going down there?" They were
Pentecostal Catholics. They were a bunch of noisy kooks and they're Catholics on top
of that. For some strange reason I kept going. And one night, I went up for prayer.
Frank said, "What do you want prayers for?" I said, "Well, so this religious stuff gets
moving." He said, "Okay. Do you want to accept Jesus as your savior?" And I had
heard that at the Baptist— they were always on my back, the few years that I went. I
thought, I don't know what I came up for, but the other side of my brain said yes. So,
nothing happened, so I thought-.
There's a program called Healing Your Memories. Well, the speaker is Father
Hampseh.
Father?
Father Hampseh.
Hampseh. Can you spell that?
Say "Ham" and then sneeze.
[laughter]
H-a-m-p-s-e-h. He'd go through a list of people and interacted with— what he was after
was bringing out the very hatred that you'd put aside. Then he'd list a bunch of sins,
because well, the Lord's Prayer says, "Forgive our sins as we forgive." So he said—
when he got toward the end he said, "Imagine yourself in a room and Jesus will come
in. He may be a crown of thorns, a robe, whatever, but he's there to help you." So I
thought. And someone did come in— a co-worker who had badly wronged me and I'd
thought I'd forgiven, but I had not. So, the next day at work, I went and saw him, and I
told him, "You know, I thought I had forgiven you, but I have not." And I told him why,
and I said, "I forgive you now. I told him why."
Then we're doing the Bible study homework, Genesis, but the— you have a lot of
references in the New Testament because it's all one cloth. So one of the references,
John 14, in there-Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light, and no one comes of the
Father except of Him. So I said to myself, "Gosh, I can accept that." I don't know what
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I was thinking, but I said that to myself. Then another reference was the-in
Deuteronomy and I don't trust those sneaky Christians so I look above a reference and
beyond~get the context. They weren't going to snow me. So, when I got to the beyond
part, there's a list of sins. I thought, God, those poor Jews. Everything they did was a
sin. They inhaled, it's a sin. They exhaled, it's a sin. They held their breath, it's a sin!
And then there were some sins that belonged to me, and I felt very repentant.
Another reference is from Hebrews, that Jesus is the ultimate high priest, and He's the
ultimate one for forgiveness of sin. And then I was overwhelmed. Something had me
like this. [Gestures with hands around throat.] Did I mention I was told my sins were all
forgiven?
Quivik: No.
Harris: Oh, my sins were— I was told my sins were all forgiven. A wonderful feeling.
Quivik: And how were you told that?
Harris: In my mind.
Quivik: Okay.
Harris: And then I was grabbed, and essentially paralyzed, and—but it sure got my attention. I
thought, "God, I can't tell anybody this. They'll think I'm a fruitcake." So, at the next
prayer meeting I wasn't going to tell anybody. We had a formal discussion group and
the leader, the whole group leader said, "What's Jesus done in your life today and this
past week?" I was so paralyzed that I couldn't think. If I had my smarts, I would say,
"Excuse me, I have to go to the restroom." But— so I tossed a few crumbs out, and they
kept after me. They finally got the truth out. That's how Elsie knew what had
happened.
Quivik: She was at that Bible study, too?
Harris: Yes. And we'd gone to a weekend retreat— Father Hampseh. I told him what I told you.
He said, "Well you're baptized in the Holy Spirit, but you should be baptized with
water." That other side of my brain says, "It's got to be immersion." He says, "Well,
we're not set up for that." It's the preferred form under Vatican Two, "But we're not set
up—." Most parishes are not set up for it. I thought, "Well, that's not going to be a
problem for me because it isn't going to be the Catholic church." [chuckles]
Our grandson almost set the house on fire fiddling with the controls on the electric
oven, and there's combustible material in the oven. I'd gotten up at two o'clock,
smelled smoke, and took care of things in the bathroom and ran down the hall. No
smoke by Sara's room so I went out-the kitchen was full of smoke. The next day, I
came home from work and scrubbing down the cabinets and all, and Elsie said, "You
better get to bed." I said, "Well, I've got to read a couple, just a couple of pages out of
the good book." I grabbed her paperback New Testament. On the way into the TV
room, where I did my homework-not with the TV on-and on the way in, I did what
Bible study fellowship called quick prayer. They said you don't need long-winded
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prayer because the Lord knows your need, and all that He wants is that you ask, and
that's all.
So, quick prayer, guide us which church to go to. I knew it was going to be a Protestant
church because the Lord~I knew at that time the Lord really loved me, and I knew he
knew how I hated the Catholic church. So it was going to be a Protestant church. So I
went to the top of the page and there's John the Baptist, and Jesus 's Baptism, and when
it came, the Holy Spirit descended like a dove. Then I— something came to my mind,
the story that Father Hampseh told at the retreat. He'd been in a big group of
Charismatic Pentecostal—had been in Rome, and Pope Paul was the celebrant, and the
dove came down, and circled him three times, and then the dove flew out through the
dome window. Then I started getting that squeeze again. I knew the squeeze-He's
paralyzing me to get my~so I would recognize just what I--the previous thought was.
Someone told me I need the Catholic church. I wasn't thrilled at it, but somehow saying
"no" to Jesus didn't seem like a very smart thing to do. So—.
Then the coincidences that happened between that point in time and the baptism—are
you interested?
Quivik: Sure.
Harris: Oh. Well, Elsie had told the assistant pastor, you know, about me. So he came for
lunch and I told him what I told you. He came with a litmus test. He said, "Elsie, has
there been any change in him?" And Elsie said, "Oh, yes. There has." And Sara said,
"My Lord, yes!"
Quivik: [laughter]
Harris: I didn't think I was that bad, but I really was. And—
Quivik: So what kind of change? Could you elaborate then, the kind of change that had come
over you?
Harris: I just— humble, unproud— which was not what you— I was not what you're looking at
now. So, I— the assistant pastor wanted me to come to his program where they're
training people for baptism and all, but he wouldn't listen to immersion. So Elsie called
this East Indian priest. He was a holy man. He wasn't just— he was a devout Christian.
We went down to see him and he gave me an adult catechism book. He knew—forty
years living with Elsie, but I didn't know anything about the Catholic church. Well, he
knew. He said, "Do you have any questions? Write them down and we'll discuss it."
So this assistant priest— I was going, and dumped Elsie off, and parked the car, came in
and said, "Hi, there," to him. He says, "I'm angry," and he said, "In fact, I'm mad."
Then he says, "I'm going to the bishop," because I wasn't going to his program, Right
Christian Initiation for Adults, RCIA. Not-"C" is not Catholic, it's Christian. The
Catholic church has finally wised up since Vatican II. I told Elsie, and she says, "He's
going to the bishop? We've got to go see Father Dennis." So we went down to see
Father Dennis. The guy gets through the book in one week? Oh, no. We've got a big
problem. We told him, and he said, "You have no problem," and he says, "The
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immersions are the preferred form of the Vatican II. He reiterated it. He said, Maybe
it'll teach him a thing or two," meaning me.
We went—the assistant was going to the Holy Land and spend a month at an Anglican
seminary there in Jerusalem. So they put on a special program for him with champagne,
and raised money. Elsie said she heard him saying, "Oh, those Harrises are preaching at
me!" Eventual ly-oh, I'll stick to him. I won't just follow everything in the time line.
We had gone to a winery up in Napa, and I picked up a little thing like a chalice. I gave
it to him, and I got a thank-you note from him, and he said—I had mentioned that we'd
be praying for him while he was in Jerusalem, and in this letter he said, "I've been
praying for you, and thank you for the spiritual help you've been to me." So Father
Dennis was right, [laughter] But, this friend that I've belatedly forgiven, his son went
to a church in Walnut Creek that did both forms-the sprinkle, or the dunk. My friend's
son had asked the pastor— "Yes, that would be fine. He can— Father Dennis can come."
So-.
Quivik: This church was not a Catholic church?
Harris: Oh, no.
Quivik: Father Dennis, and the assistant priest— are they at the local parish there in Concord?
Harris: Father Dennis had been an assistant at Elsie's parish, there. Saint Agnes. And Father
John Lydman, the one who got uptight, the assistant at Saint Agnes— so I had gone to the
book, and one thing that really bugged me— the Pope stuff. I thought, well, I just can't
hack the authority of the Pope. I said, "Lord, I've had it." Well, the next day, as we're
reading the paper, a couple of Catholic theologians had mouthed off about something,
and you'd agree, God, those guys are horse's necks, moving up from the back to the
neck, [chuckles] And the Pope told them to knock it off and be quiet. He shut them up.
Now, if they were Baptist, no one could have shut them up, but the Pope did it So that
took care of that.
So Father Dennis says, "Name the time and place. I'll be there." I got— went and got in
touch with my friend. The secretary says he's gone back to company headquarters for a
week. Then the following week, I forgot to call him. Monday and Tuesday I called
him. The secretary says he's in Sacramento, he won't be back until Friday. So, when
Friday came, I got the phone number of the pastor. I didn't want to call him because his
work was cut out for him for the weekend. Monday I called and the pastor's son
answered. I said-he said his father wasn't there. I said, "I'll call him when he gets
back." "When's he going to be back?" "He won't be back for two weeks." He's a Navy
chaplain, yes. I thought, "Oh, God, two weeks." And I might find out that they're not
going to have any immersions for a month or so.
So I was coming home from work grumbling. "Lord, you got me in this mess, You've
got to do something." When I got there, a friend from the prayer group was at the house,
the only time she was ever at the house. As I was grumbling away, she said, "We could
go over to Assembly of God Church-they're charismatic-and see the pastor." And, as
she was talking, I knew that was it. So I went and he wanted to know what brought us
there, so I told him my story. He said, "Yes, you can use it."
90
Well, we bought a large sheet cake because about eighty-five people came. When they
put the cake in the trunk, the bakery guy said, "It's covered with cream. You've got to
keep it refrigerated." "I thought, oh, that's no problem." Two or three of our neighbors
had deep-freezes. They had all—kids had left home, and they'd gotten rid of their deep
freezes.
[Begin Tape 10, Side B]
Harris: So I called the Assembly of God Church, and the fellow said, "Oh, yes. We have a
large refrigerator." I went and it cleared. Coinci dentally it cleared front and back. And
before we left, the gentleman said, "By the way, you're lucky. I'd forgotten something.
Normally, there's no one here at this time, but I forgot something and had to come
back." Coincidence? Well, they let us, he says, charge for the sanctuary just for the hot
water, but the fireside room, no charge.
Quivik: Were these eighty-five folks from your prayer group, or your Bible study group, or from
the local parish--?
Harris: Oh, people from work, and a lot of Protestants, and the~[laughter] I think a lot of the
Protestants from work came to see is this really going to happen?
Quivik: [laughter] Because they'd known you all those years?
Harris: Oh, yes. So Father Dennis came, beautiful robe, and I said, "Where'd you get wet
clothes, Father?" "Ohh." So I went home to get some old clothes for him. I was coming
up Farm Bureau Road there, and someone starts speaking to me, "Why don't you just
turn around and go back? They'll get over it. Just turn around and go back. They'll get
over it. You know you don't want to become a Catholic". You don't have to do much
guessing to know who was speaking to me.
Quivik: Yes. What day of the week was this, by the way.
Harris: Sunday. Palm Sunday.
Quivik: Palm Sunday? For the regular Sunday service, or was this later on Sunday after--?
Harris: Sunday afternoon. There are other things, coincidentals that don't come to mind right
now, but--.
Quivik: So you were baptized twenty years ago, and it was at an Assemblies of God Church, but
since then you've been active in your local Catholic congregation with Elsie?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And how did she like that?
Harris: Well, she was thrilled. She was thrilled at the baptism of the Holy Spirit because I had
accepted Jesus and He had accepted me. That was enough for her. That's the most
important thing.
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The rest— oh, we had Seventh Day Adventist friends and they're very anti-Catholic, the
Adventists. We had a fig tree and one of the visiting clergy at the Adventist Church
liked figs. When he found out that he was going to get them from a Catholic, he didn't
want any. [laughter] One day she said to me, "Oh, you people worship the sun God.
You go to church on Sunday." I said, "Oh, you must worship Saturn. You go to church
on Saturday." Elsie said, "Boy, she's never going to forgive you for that." You'd tell her
something, and "Oh, no. You're wrong." every time, almost every time. "Oh, no.
You're wrong. Oh, no. You're wrong." So, one day, I thought I'll set her up. "You
know, Marion, the Catholic church hasn't saved anybody." Her face went up. I knew I
had her, and I said, "Neither has the Seventh Day Adventist church saved anyone. Jesus
is the one who saves. She didn't say I was wrong." [laughter]
Quivik: Well, you mentioned a bit ago the Franciscan university in Ohio. Can you describe how
you came to be involved with that university?
Harris: Well, one of their faculty had a TV program, and channel 42 used to be a Christian
station. This priest was on the—had a program on this station, and he's commenting
about the school back there where he was teaching. So I got involved in sending more
money, and sending them more money, and I sent a check to the president of the school,
Father Michael Scanlon. In the letter I said I wanted it to go to the chemistry
department above budget because if it's budget, all you're doing is letting it go anyplace
because above budget doesn't really mean anything. It does— I'm sorry—it does because
it's extra money for the chemistry department. I said that I've only been a Christian for
four years but I've been a chemist for forty years and old habits die hard. I wanted it to
go to the chemistry department.
Last October I was invited back. They paid my airfare. They paid for my hotel. The
young man that picked me up took me to the hotel and I had dinner. He said, "Dr.
Liver, she would like to~(head of the chem department)~she would like to see you at
the new science building." So I went. We went up to the top floor, the top is the best
for-for the best, the chemists, [laughter] Don't tell Fuerstenau. [chuckles] So, we
came out of the elevator and there's a crowd down there in the hall and they started
singing "Happy Birthday" because, coincidentally, it was my birthday. So it was a little
over a year ago. So after we had done severe damage to the sheet cake, she started
reading my attributes—the patents and all that stuff. Then she went up and took a cloth
off the wall, and there's a bronze plaque, "The Dr. Guy Harris Instrument Lab."
Someone said to her, "Boy, that is a long list you had, there." She said, "No, I kept it
brief." [chuckles]
Quivik: So you've been donating to that university for roughly fifteen, sixteen years?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And they named the instrument lab after you. Congratulations.
Harris: And I've taken four graduate theology classes there.
Quivik: Yes. They have a seminary that's part of the university?
Harris: No, they have a theology department.
92
Quivik: What particular aspect of theology are you interested in?
Harris: Oh, just curious. I had to write—the first class, I had to— we had to write three papers.
The last class I took for credit, three papers. Second paper, I only got a "B-plus" and I
said, "Dr. Shrek, what can I do to improve my grade?" He said, "Stop writing them like
technical reports."
Quivik: [laughter]
Harris: So they —two years ago I took a class in the teachings of Vatican II. We had to write
three papers. Each paper, "A," excellent, "A," excellent, "A," excellent.
Quivik: So you're learning to broaden your writing style?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Good. But you continue to work on technical papers as well?
Harris: Yes. Well, actually, I was co-author on five.
Quivik: Last year?
Harris: Last year.
Quivik: Well, I'd like to talk about some of those technical papers, but to get to that point, I'd
like to take you back now to your retirement from Dow Chemical.
Harris: In 1982.
Quivik: And what led to your retirement?
Harris: Well, I was going on sixty-eight, and I would have to retire when I was seventy.
Quivik: That's company policy?
Harris: And I didn't want to stay till I was seventy because it looked like too much a company
man. And they had a bonus for people who retire early. If you're over sixty-five, it's
only four months pay, but-. And I had done my "infernal" revenue 1040, and did a
little calculating. I wasn't going to lose much, and in the four months it would be a big-
-take the sting out. Another— a friend of mine was quitting. He was only sixty-two. I
was sixty-eight and-. I did some consulting with a company down in Arizona. And
also—
Quivik: What kind of a company?
Harris: Making chemical reagents.
Quivik: What's the name of the company?
Harris: It was Kerley Chemical.
93
Quivik: And reagents for the mining industry?
Harris: Yes. So I was working—I was even on the Penn State payroll for two weeks. I made
twenty-seven or twenty-eight reagents in two weeks.
Quivik: Was that immediately after your retirement from Dow?
Harris: Not immediate, but essentially immediately.
Quivik: Okay. Can you describe how you established a relationship with Penn State University?
Harris: Oh, one of the fellows at Dow was a de facto professor, it means the same thing.
Quivik: Adjunct?
Harris: Adjunct professor. And, Fuerstenau knew him well. And I was supplying reagents for
a graduate student, and she's working on a program that Klimpel helped design.
And the graduate student was Patrice Ackerman and her thesis—the reagents made by or
under supervision of Dr. Harris. Reagents made by— you know they all, all of the
reagents were made by me or under my supervision.
Quivik: At Dow?
Harris: Yes. And so she turned out a lot of work because she didn't have to spend time making
reagents. Two of the papers last year I was co-author on for Penn State, and one of the
papers is taken from a patent of mine from Dow. Then the remaining two was the work
of coal here, that we'll get to.
Quivik: Back then, when you started working with Penn State through Klimpel's contact, was it
when were you on the payroll at Penn State? Was that to work with this graduate
student, to help her with the work she was doing?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And you've worked with Apian at Penn State?
Harris: Yes, Professor Frank Apian.
Quivik: And is that when you first started working with Professor Apian?
Harris: No. I had gotten involved with him while I was still at Dow.
Quivik: Earlier? And what's his field of study?
Harris: Oh, Fuerstenau's.
Quivik: Extractive metallurgy?
Harris: Yes. I haven't had a chemical paper in eons! [laughter] It's just been mineral reagents.
94
Quivik: Then you've also worked with Doug Fuerstenau here at Cal.
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: How did you first come in contact with Doug?
Harris: Well, first contact was in '63. I had gone up to the International Mineral Processing
Congress meeting in Cannes, France. I went up from Ghana while I was teaching at
Ghana, but Dow paid the expenses. I had to get permission from the professor, the head
of the department. I said Dow's paying for it. "Oh! Go on, go! Yes, yes, yes." He
thought when the University of Ghana had had to pay for it, he didn't know how he was
going to justify it but when Dow paid, fine-because this way, another thing on the
annual report for the department, someone had gone to a technical meeting out of the
country, and--.
Quivik: So you met Doug there?
Harris: Yes. And he and a co-worker, Elmer Tveter— and they —we may have mentioned--?
Quivik: Yes.
Harris: And Elmer bought a Mercedes diesel, and we went up, and visited the place. I'll think
about it, and in a day or two, where we went. I think it was Grasse, known for it's
perfumes. And so I'd stopped by here to see Doug, and one of my students from Ghana
went to the Royal School of Mines and got his M.Sc. and D.Phil., (Ph.D.). When he'd
finished, he'd come out and spent three weeks with us. He flew over and he wanted to
see Fuerstenau's department, so I called Doug. He says, "Bring him down." I called my
friend George Parks at Stanford and he says, "I'd like to show you our department, if we
only had one," because Stanford had dropped the mining department.
Quivik: Yes.
Harris: Although it got its fame from Herbert Hoover. And in '88 I happened to stop by and see
Doug. As I was walking out, Doug said, "God dammit Harris. I should have put your
name on the D.O.E. proposal I just sent in. I think I can still add your name-do you
mind?" And I said, "No." A week or so—a week later, I got a phone call from Penn
State, "Guy, I'm sending in the proposal to the Department of Energy contract, coal
research, and I'd like to put your name on it." I told him, "Too late."
Quivik: And that was Apian?
Harris: Yes. So--.
Quivik: You got the grant, or the contract?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And what was that to do?
95
Harris: Coal processing—went on for a good three years. They had a big army there because he
had money, [chuckle]
Quivik: And were there graduate students? Can you describe what kind of coal processing you
were working on?
Harris: We had high rank and moderately low ranked coal, and one in between. Pittsburgh
number eight, Illinois number six, and the third one.
Quivik: And when you're saying, talking about rank, you mean from— bituminous to sub-
bituminous to lignite?
Harris: Anthracite. High ranked.
Quivik: Yes, that's the highest. And did you go as low as lignite?
Harris: No, no.
Quivik: Sub-bituminous?
Harris: No. Illinois number six was somewhat— it wasn't exactly high-ranked—
Quivik: Yes, but it was bituminous coal?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: Okay.
Harris: And out of this came, from here, my idea— two classes of collectors for low-ranked coal,
and there are no, other than ours, low-ranked coal collectors. I think the use has been
fuel oil, that type of collector, and standard frother, MIBC, very common. But our two
classes—the collector really worked.
Quivik: And, can you say what it is you were trying to accomplish there, in employing these
collectors?
Harris: Well, you get rid of the-a lot of the ash and we were trying-the main goal was pyrite
because that's about fifty-five percent sulfur and the acid rain is from the SO2, SO3
smelters and power plants.
Quivik: So this was intended to be a way of treating finely pulverized coal, and separating ash,
and/or sulfur compounds from the hydrocarbons?
Harris: Yes, and we were also-they, the big wheels and the D.O.E., they really tied our hands.
We had to do this, we had to do that. They came up with the idea of free radicals— well,
utilizing the free radical concept. So they wanted us to come up with some free radical
initiators. So I figured you had to use something common, cheap. Fuerstenau likes-he
doesn't care. But my years at Dow, if it isn't economical, forget it.
96
So I used styrene as an initiate to the free radical polymerization. What they figured it'd
take a monomer like that and when you're grinding the ore, you're breaking carbon-
carbon bonds, and you're generating free radicals. This monomer polymerizes on the
surface. So I took the styrene, and the methyl-acrolade, and a couple other things that
don't come to mind at the moment. These monomers are going to have some collector
properties of their own. So I took ethyl benzine and if there are no differences between
the impact of ethyl benzine and styrene, you don't have anything. Well, they hadn't
even thought of that. They were really impressed with what we had done. We--.
It's funny, no one claimed any credit for the idea to begin with.
Quivik: No one did?
Harris: Not after-after our work, showing that the concept was fallacious. No one wanted to
say, "Hey, I came up with a bum idea." No way.
Quivik: Well, I'm confused. Was it a bum idea?
Harris: Yes. It didn't work.
Quivik: Oh. It didn't work.
Harris: Because the ethyl benzine and the styrene behaved as the same when it was added to the
ball mill. And I figured, probably—
[Begin Tape 11, Side A]
Harris: The coal is a poly-cyclic, aromatic system. Then you break the carbon-carbon bond-
yes, you will get a free radical, but if you take hexa-phenyl ethane, there's a phenyl on
each valence available on the ethane hydrogen. It's a nice crystalline solid, but if you
use a solvent, and, say, benzine re-hydrocarbon, the solution becomes yellow and what
you have there is a phenyl-phenyl-phenyl-methyl free radical, and that free radical— the
electron gets what we call de-localized into the benzine rings. The solution, the stable
form, is the free radical de-localized into the three—the carbon-carbon bond two
electrons, when it breaks you have one, you've got a free radical, and it's stabilized by
residing into the three benzine rings. The pole with all this poly-cyclic— you break a
carbon-carbon bond, that electron just wanders off into the poly-cyclic system that's
available in the particle.
Quivik: And so, the net result is that-what? You're not able to use it, use this-
Harris: Concept.
Quivik: -concept as a way of separating the ash or the sulfur from the carbon--?
Harris: Not the ash, the-
Quivik: That can be separated—
97
Harris: You're not enhancing the flotation process by the styrene reacting with that free radical,
and building a polymeric coating.
Quivik: Okay. So the net result of that work was to show that the process would not be
effective.
Harris: But no one wanted to take credit for having made-[laughter]~came up with a concept
that didn't work.
Quivik: Yes. Well, you spent a lot of money to demonstrate that there was no point in further
research, right? [laughter]
Harris: Yes, and they didn't push it. [laughter]
Quivik: Have you worked on other coal-related projects since?
Harris: Oh, yes. In '93, 1-the first class of low-rank coal collector—I gave a paper in Reno at
the SME meeting.
Quivik: And just in case we haven't got this on tape yet, what's SME?
Harris: Society of Mining Exploratory Engineers.
Quivik: Okay. So you gave a paper and you've continued this coal work from '91 onward?
Harris: Yes.
Quivik: And with Doug [Fuerstenau], working with Doug?
Harris: Yes. Doug really liked it, the second class, and he ran with the ball, [chuckles] So, he
needs it more than I do. [chuckling] Yes, and someone in Australia became aware of
our work and they did some, I think, not just simple lab tests, but big tests and they said,
"It's great."
Quivik: Have you worked on projects, either through Cal or Penn State, with other mineral
activities besides coal, since you retired—?
Harris: Oh, yes. The stuff at Penn State was—we had five minerals: chalcopyrite, chalcocite, —
we-
Quivik: Enargite?
Harris: Well, anyway we had-
Quivik: All copper minerals, anyway.
Harris: Yes. Four, and the fifth was pyrite. And you looked to see if you could come up with
something that was good for copper, but not for pyrite flotation. Patrice used a pure
mineral to determine the velocity of the kinetic speed of the flotation.
98
Quivik: This is that work you were doing shortly after you retired from Dow.
Harris: Yes, at Perm State.
Quivik: Besides those two connections, the University of California and the Penn State
connections, have you done some other professional work since you retired?
Harris: No. I retired in '82. Dow went out of the business in '79, so I did some consulting
while I was still at Dow. I would take the time and charge it off against vacation, but I'd
get paid by the other. I went out to General Mills Mining Company, and I went up to
Minneapolis, and they wanted to retain me as a consultant. They wanted to go into the
mineral reagent business.
Quivik: You mean General Mills, the company that mills flour, and makes cereal, and so forth?
Harris: Yes. They were making the best LIX reagent, solvent-extractive reagent for copper, or
solutions of copper.
Quivik: Hmm. What kind of reagent? You said LIX?
Harris: Yes. Liquid ion exchange.
Quivik: Oh, right. LIX, right. General Mills was making that
Harris: And they sold the company off. I told— I'm slitting my own throat but I can't
recommend that you get into the reagent—go into the reagent business. A few years
later I saw my friend Joe House and he said, Thank you for giving us the right steer.
Quivik: [chuckles]
Quivik: What I'd like to do now, Guy, is turn to some broad, overall, evaluative questions and
ask you if you could put your career as a chemist in context. What would you say your
contribution to the field has been?
Harris: Well, my contribution to the pharmaceutical-the work has continued for about five
years after I left. I was still working on my ideas.
Quivik: Was the poultry feed related to cocciliosis?
Harris: No, it's the William S. Merrill Company in Cincinnati. Dow bought them out and then
Dow sold them to, I think Bayer, and Bayer just shut the lab down.
Quivik: Oh, okay. I'm sorry. This goes back to your work in Cincinnati. All right, gotcha.
Harris: They were making this reagent using my process and it's something—since I wasn't
there, I wasn't privy to everything that went on, but there were a lot of publications and
all, not with my name on it. They had a policy of, if you weren't there, you weren't part
of their team.
Quivik: Yes.
99
Harris: I guess it was a real good reagent but not very good so it didn't make it. Then the Z-
200, we discussed that earlier, how much copper in one year it saved for mankind.
Then I had a real good reagent but it was mis-marketed. The middle management guys
wanted to make big bucks so they could get a lot of credit.
Quivik: Which reagent are we talking about now?
Harris: The 2-11. It was mill-trialed at Falconbridge. The price they were talking to
Falconbridge initially, the company could make good money, but the middle
management guy wanted to make big bucks so he could leap-frog up the ladder. There
was another nickel reagent that was mill-trialed in Australia, but the ore contained mica
and the Dow sales representative didn't know how to handle the problem. He should
have gone back with polyglycol 400 and that would have handled the mica problem, but
we didn't always get top flight metallurgists.
Quivik: Why do you think that your Z-200 did not fall prey to middle managers pricing it out of
the mining companies' reach?
Harris: Well, Elmer Tveter was the one that got it moving, and, back in the fifties, we were
getting a dollar a pound for it. So that was big money and the mining—regular chemical
business has its ups and downs, but the mining doesn't go with it. One time the profits,
the only profit for the western division was the Z-200 because all the caustic chlorine
and the other products of Pittsburgh weren't making any money because business was
bad. Then the frother-I think I mentioned the success of the mill trial and at fifty-five
cents a pound, you could make good money, but the middle management guy wanted
seventy-five.
Well, that was my fate. Being stuck— I couldn't make~if a new reagent was going to
require a new plan, Dow wouldn't touch it because they had one plan already. I
remember at an SME meeting in San Francisco, the, our big competitor was American
Cyanamid, which is now Cytech. This young man was in charge of their reagent
development crew. He says, "Oh, you're my counter part at Dow. You're like me,
you're in charge of the reagent development group." I said, "I am the reagent
development group."
Quivik: So all of those different chemicals that you developed-would you rate Z-200 as the
most successful, or having the most impact?
Harris: Well, yes, because it's the only one that really got sold. The frother would have made
big money for Dow, and also, would have been a boon for mankind.
Quivik: It was just priced wrong? Is that the main reason it didn't succeed, do you think?
Harris: Well, it was mill-trialed at Morenci [Arizona] and the mill superintendent had been
assured that the price would be fifty-five cents a pound. So when the middle
management guy saw the results of the mill trial-seventy-five cents a pound.
Quivik: And then, in terms of that span of the development of reagents, frothers, etc. Was there
any kind of approach that you took to developing those that you think contributed either
to the larger industry or to the way that Dow thought about that kind of development
100
work? Would you put any of your work in that category— that it helped change the
course of development?
Harris: I don't see how you could change anything with the middle management people we had.
The mining people kind of called the shots in the beginning. Then, when they started
bringing outsiders in charge of the mining group--.
Quivik: Where were those outsiders from?
Harris: Oh, civil engineer in charge of the mining group, and--.
Quivik: Were they also from outside the company?
Harris: No, no, no.
Quivik: They were just outside the field?
Harris: Outside the field. Yes. If I had gone to work for American Cyanamid, I'd have been a
real big hero.
Quivik: [chuckles] And is that because their business was focused?
Harris: Run as a business should be run.
Quivik: And how—could you characterize that? How would you describe that?
Harris: He said—he said, "You look and what it costs you to make, and then a reasonable profit.
If that reasonable profit— the reagent can do something for the company, the mining
company, they'll buy it."
Quivik: And the folks at Dow didn't run it that way?
Harris: No. At first they did but Elmer Tveter got fired in '58, '60, and became— and the
former, retired research director, at Western got him back. And he— we always worked
together. His strong suit wasn't chemistry, but he had me and I had him. We made a
good team.
Quivik: Was that relationship, that working relationship with Elmer— would you consider that
you be your top one of career at Dow?
Harris: I'd have been less effective with someone else and they would've been less effective.
Quivik: Okay. Well I think we've covered most of the bases and I thank you for this interview,
Guy.
[End of interview]
101
APPENDIX
A. Guy Harris Biography 103
B. List of Publications 105
C. List of Patents 107
D. Nomination of Guy Harris for the Frank Apian Award 109
E. Minerals Yearbook Summary of Flotation Reagents for 1985 115
102
103
Dr. Guy H. Harris
1673 Georgia Drive
Concord, CA 94519
Education
B. S., Chemistry, University of California at Berkeley, 1937
A. M., Chemistry, Stanford University, 1939
Ph.D., Organic Chemistry, Stanford University, 1941
Professional Experience
1937 - 1938 Analytical Chemist, Shell Development Company
1941 Post Doctoral Researcher, Stanford University (with C. R. Noller)
1941 - 1945 Organic Chemist, William S. Merrell Company
1945 - 1946 Organic Chemist, Fibreboard Products Company
1946 - 1959 Organic Chemist, Dow Chemical Company
1959 - 1982 Associate Scientist, Dow Chemical Company (flotation reagent
design, synthesis and process development
1962 -1964 Senior Lecturer, Chemistry Department, University of Ghana
(on leave from Dow Chemical Company)
1982 - Consultant for Dow Chemical Company, American Cyanamid,
Henkel, I.T. Corporation, Kerley Mining Chemical, Pannsylvania
State University (consulting plus reagent synthesis)
1988- Visiting Research Engineer, University of California at Berkeley
(Coal desulfurization by advanced flotation, coal flotation
reagent development, pyrite depressants, nonmetallic
mineral collectors)
2000- Honorary Professor, Huainan Institute of Technology, Huainan,
China
Professional Society and Related Activities
Royal Society of Chemistry (Fellow)
Society for Mining, Metallurgy and Exploration, AIME (Distinguished Member)
American Chemical Society
West African Science Association
American Association for the Advancement of Science (Fellow)
Sigma Xi, Phi Lambda Upsilon
Research Interests
Mining chemicals (design of flotation collectors, depressants, frothers)
agricultural chemicals, pharmaceuticals
104
105
FLOTATION-RELATED PUBLICATIONS OF GUY H. HARRIS
(40 TOTAL)
"Xanthates," Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, 2nd Ed., Interscience, New
York, pp. 419-429 (1970).
"Effect of Alkyl Substituents on Performance of Thionocarbamates as Copper Sulfide and
Pyrite Collectors." (with P. K. Ackerman, R. R. Klimpel and F. F. Apian), Reagents in the
Minerals Industry, M.J. Jones and R. Oblatt, Eds., The Institution of Mining and Metallurgy,
London, pp. 69-78 (19784).
"Xanthates," Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, 3rd Ed., Interscience, New
York, pp. 645-661 (1984).
"Importance of Reagent Purity in Evaluation of Flotation Collectors," (with P. K. Ackerman,
R.R. Klimpel and F. F. Apian), Transactions Institution of Mining and Metallurgy, Section
C, pp. C165-C168 (1986).
"Evaluation of Flotation Collectors for Copper Sulfides and Pyrite, II. Non- Sulfhydryl
Collectors," (with P. K. Ackerman, R.R. Klimpel and F. F. Apian), International Journal
of Mineral Processing, Vol. 21, pp. 105-127 (1987).
"Evaluation of Flotation Collectors for Copper Sulfides and Pyrite, I. Common Sulfhydryl
Collectors," (with P. K. Ackerman, R.R. Klimpel and F. F. Apian), International Journal
of Mineral Processing, Vol. 21, pp. 129-140 (1987).
"Evaluation of Flotation Collectors for Copper Sulfides and Pyrite, IE. Effect of Xanthate
Chain Length and Branching," (with P. K. Ackerman, R.R. Klimpel and F. F. Apian),
International Journal of Mineral Processing, Vol. 21, pp. 141-156 (1987).
"Principles and Practice of Sulphide Mineral Flotation," (with D. W. Fuerstenau, R. Herrera-
Urbina, and J. S. Hanson), in Sulphide Deposits — Their Origin and Processing, P. M. J.
Gray, Ed., Institution of Mining and Metallurgy, pp. 87-101 (1991).
"Coal Flotation with Nonionic Surfactant Collectors," (with D. W. Fuerstenau and J. Diao),
Preprint No. 93-241, SME Annual Meeting, Reno, NV (1993)
"Coal Flotation with Nonionic Surfactants," (with D. W. Fuerstenau and J. Diao), Coal
Preparation - A Multinational Journal, Vol. 16, pp.135-147 (1995).
"Surface Chemistry and Rheology of Pittsburgh No. 8 Coal-Water Slurry in the Presence of a
New Pyrite Depressant," (with F. J. Sotillo and D. W. Furestenau), Coal Preparation: A
Multinational Journal, Vol. 18, pp. 151-183 (1997).
"Nonionic Surfactants as Collectors for the Flotation of Oxidized and/or Low-Rank Coal,"
(with D. W. Fuerstenau and R. Jia), in Surfactant-Based Separations, J.F. Scamehorn and J.
H. Harwell, Ed., ACS Symposium Series 740, American Chemical Society, Washington, DC,
pp. 230-247 (1999).
"A New Family of Flotation Reagents for the Depression of Pyrite: A Clean Technology for
an Old Problem," (with J. Sotillo and D. W. Fuerstenau), Clean Technology for the Third
Millennium Challenge, Proceedings of the International Mining and Environmental
Congress, Lima, Peru, pp. 99-116 (1999).
106
"An Improved Class of Universal Collectors for the Flotation of Oxidized and /or Low-Rank
Coal," (with R. Jia and D. W. Fuerstenau), International Journal of Mineral Processing. Vol
58, pp. 99-118 (2000).
"Use of Xanthogen Formates as Collectors in the Flotation of Copper Sulfides and Pyrite,"
(with P. K. Ackerman, R. R. Klimpel, and F. F. Apian), International Journal of Mineral
Processing. Vol. 58, pp. 1-13 (2000)
"An Improved Class of Flotation Frothers," (with R. Jia), International Journal of Mineral
Processing. Vol. 58, pp. 35-43 (2000).
"Chemical Reagents for Enhanced Coal Flotation," (with R. Jia and D. W. Fuerstenau), Coal
Preparation: A Multinational Journal, Vol. 22, pp. 123-149 (2002).
107
GUY H. HARRIS FLOTATION REAGENT PATENTS
(51 total number of patents)
Dialkyl thionocarbamates. U.S. 2,691,635, 12 Oct. 1954.
Thiono Compounds and Their Use as Flotation Agents. U.S. 3,590,996, 03 July 1971.
Thiocarboxylic Esters as Flotation Aids. U.S. 3,590,996, 03 July 1971.
Flotation of Sulfide Ores. U.S. 3,590,998, 06 July 1971.
Flotation of Sulfide Ores. U.S. 3,590,999, 06 July 1971.
Bis (cyclic alkylene) pyrophosphates. U.S. 3,579,511, 03 Aug. 1971.
Hydroxy Alkyl Phosphates and Polyphosphates. U.S. 3,652,743, 28 March 1972.
Preparation of N-Alkyl-Thioalkyl-0-alkyl Thiocarbamate. U.S. 3,772,345, 13 Nov. 1973.
Dithio and Thionocarbamate Mineral Value Collectors. U.S. 3,787,471, 22 Jan. 1974.
Flotation of Sulfide Ores Using Dithiocarbamic Derivatives. U.S. 3,853,751, 10 Dec. 1974
Flotation of Sulfide Ores Using Dithiocarbamates. U.S. 3,856,751, 10 Dec. 1974.
Frothers for the Flotation of Sulfidic Ores. U.S. 3,865,718, 11 Feb. 1975.
Frother Flotation Process. U.S. 4,122,004, 24 Oct. 1978.
Froth Flotation Process. U.S. 4,130,477, 22 Oct. 1978.
Froth Flotation Process. U.S. 4,122,004, 24 Oct. 1978.
Process for the Recovery of Non -Ferrous Metal Sulfides. U.S. 4,793,852, 27 Dec. 1988.
Pyrite Depressant Useful in Flotation Separation. U.S. 5,846,407, 08 Dec. 1998.
Pyrite Depressant Useful in Flotation Separation. U.S. 5,853,571, 29 Dec. 1998.
Pyrite Depressant Useful in Flotation Separation. U.S. 5,855,771, 05 Jan. 1999.
108
109
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY
BERKELEY • DAVE < IRVINE • LOS ANGELES • RIVERSIDE • SAN DIEGO • SAN FRANCISCO fl^t/Iffi 1993) SANTA BARBARA • SANTA CRUZ
DOUGLAS W. FUERSTBNAU
Professor in the Graduate School Telephone: (510) 642-3826
Department of Materials Science and Mineral Engineering FAX: <510) 643-S792
477 Evans Hall #1760 e-mail: dwfuerst@socrate8.berkeley.edu
Berkeley, California 94720-1760
June 14, 2002
Dr. Edward C. Dowling
Chairman, AIME Frank Apian Award Committee
Cleveland-Cliffs Inc.
1100 Superior Avenue
Cleveland, OH 44114-2589
Re: Nomination of Dr. Guy H. Harris for the 2003 Frank F. Apian Award
Dear Dr. Dowling:
I write to nominate in the highest terms Dr. Guy H. Harris for the 2003 Frank F.
Apian Award of AIME. Of living chemists involved with mining chemicals, there
probably is no one worldwide who has had the impact on flotation reagent synthesis
that Guy Harris has had. He has shown the way to design and synthesize new reagents
to achieve improved flotation results, primarily for the flotation of sulfide ores but also
for the flotation of coal.
He is known worldwide for his work in flotation reagent synthesis and is quite
likely the most knowledgeable synthesis chemist in the field, with his experience
extending back about 60 years. Most of his long career was with the Mining Chemicals
Division of Dow Chemical Company, from 1946 until his retirement in 1982, where his
major concern was with flotation reagent design, synthesis and process development.
He has published some 35 papers (including 7 major book chapters) and in the past
decade or so has made more than a dozen major technical presentations for SME, IMPC
and other international symposia. In 1999, he was invited to China where he presented
a series of lectures in Beijing and Huainan on reagents for the flotation of sulfide
minerals and coal. Though retired from Dow Chemical Company in 1982, he has
remained active in research on flotation reagents, first at Perm State and then at the
University of California at Berkeley. To this day, at the age of 88, he spends a day a
week at Berkeley working with graduate students on the design, synthesis and testing
of new reagents for mineral and coal flotation.
His invention of Z-200 (a dialkyl dithionocarbamate, U.S. Patent 2,691,635) is
undoubtedly the most significant sulfide flotation reagent development since the
invention of xanthate as flotation collector by Keller in 1923, followed by the
- 1 -
110
dithiophosphates shortly thereafter. The impact of Z-200 on sulfide ore flotation, and
particularly copper ore flotation, can be illustrated with data for 1979 as an example.
In 1979, 10 million pounds of this reagent (and its copy by other producers) were sold
worldwide. At a reagent consumption of 0.02 - 0.04 Ib/ton, there is an increase in
copper flotation recovery of +2 %. With the treatment of about 330 million tons of
copper sulfide ores worldwide and assuming a grade of 0.6 % (an underestimate), this
means that Guy Harris1 invention has given the world an additional 80 million pounds
of copper annually — an incredible achievement.
For a number of decades, with Elmer Tveter and others, Guy Harris was an
important part of the very successful Dow Chemical group based in Martinez and
Walnut Creek, CA, that developed a broad variety of flotation collectors and frothers,
testing them in the laboratory and then shepherding them through commercial
development. Dr. Harris was directly in charge of that part of the effort involved in the
identification and synthesis of these reagents and cooperated with others in the
development stage. Some years ago, as a consultant for Amax, I had considerable
interaction with that Dow Chemical group and in particular with Guy Harris who had
synthesized a sulfur-bearing polymer that enhanced the recovery of molybdenite in the
Climax ore. Adding the sulfur atom to the molecule was Harris' idea.
A program of reagent development was initiated at Dow Midland under the
general direction of the late Dr. R. R. Klimpel at about the time of Guy Harris'
retirement in California. The background laid by Guy Harris was the underlying basis
for the various reagents that KUmpel's group developed and promoted widely.
After he retired from Dow, Dr. Harris spent several months at Pennsylvania State
University in the Mineral Processing Section working with Professor Frank Apian and
Dr. Klimpel (who also held the position of Adjunct Professor at Perm State) on a
comprehensive program concerned with the role of chemical structure on the efficacy of
collectors for the flotation of copper sulfide minerals and pyrite. After initial studies
directed towards determining how altering the structure of the hydrocarbon chain on
various standard collectors affected flotation effectiveness, they turned their attention to
delineating how altering the molecular structure of the complex thionocarbamate
molecule might regulate its effectiveness as a flotation collector. For this, a great deal of
innovativeness was necessary in preparing a wide range of molecular configurations of
thionocarbamates where molecular substitutions might alter adsorption and flotation
performance by substituting various groups that control the steric assessibility and the
activity of the reactive N-C-S group (which binds the collector to the mineral surface).
Their investigation involved determining how the addition and location of hydrocarbon
groups (alkyl, branched chains, aryl) on the molecule affect the reactivity of the
reagent. They further investigated how the introduction of a sulfur atom, or an oxygen
atom, or a nitrogen atom at various locations on the molecule would affect such
parameters as reagent solubility, oxidation, decomposition and solubility as well as its
more important role in determining flotation selectivity, flotation rates and recovery.
Guy Harris not only had significant input in suggesting how these substitutions
influence steric assessibility, electron density and hydrophobicity of the collector
-2-
Ill
compounds, but also worked out methods for their synthesis if the reagents were not
already available. The results of that program are available to serve as a guide to others
in sulfide reagent design.
In 1988 in the University of California at Berkeley, we were awarded a contract to
investigate the desulfurization of high-sulfur coals by advanced flotation. At that time,
Dr. Harris joined the research team as a Visiting Research Engineer. He was involved
with devising standard flotation procedures by which we would make comparisons of
the response on new flotation procedures and, more specifically, with the development
of pyrite depressants. He suggested and synthesized a number of different pyrite
depressants that had showed some success, but were limited by the degree of liberation
of the coal and pyrite (since the Department of Energy specified the degree to which the
coal could be ground). Subsequent work led to the design of some new depressants
that show very significant potential in mineral flotation. His approach to depressant
design was based on bifunctional molecules, which would have a group that interacts
with the pyrite surface and also have hydrophilic groups that prevents bubble
attachment.
Dr. Harris continues to come into the University about a day each week, working
with graduate students. During these latter years, he became interested in developing a
universal collector for the flotation of coal of various ranks and state of oxidation. He
sought a bifunctional class of compounds (a series of hydrofurfural esters) that would
have an oxygen-containing group that could hydrogen bond with the oxygenated
surface sites on the coal and a hydrocarbon chain that could attach through
hydrophobic bonding with hydrophobic carbonaceous sites on the coal. Thus,
depending on the rank of the coal and its degree of oxidation, one or the other of these
interaction mechanisms might be more dominant in effecting coal flotation. These have
worked as successful collectors on a variety of coals, including those that had been
oxidized in the laboratory. Planning what kind of molecule might have certain
characteristics as a flotation reagent and working with graduate students to develop the
reagent has been a real interest of Dr. Harris during the past few years. I am always
impressed that he considers what the cost of producing such a reagent might be — he
aims at economic realism. No doubt his decades at Dow Chemical Company dictated
that flotation reagents must have a realistic price.
I would like to point out the special fact that Guy Harris took a leave of absence
from Dow for two years, 1962 -1964) to teach chemistry as a Senior Lecturer at the
University of Ghana. While others talk about all the good things they would like to do
for others, Guy Harris put his idea to help others who were less fortunate into actual
practice. Several of the students that he had in his chemistry classes in Ghana went on
to complete Ph.D. degrees in other universities around the world.
A wide range of individuals in the mineral industry world, both academic and
industrial, have written in support of the nomination of Guy Harris for the Apian
Award.
-3-
112
Frank Apian himself writes:
"It is my pleasure to endorse Dr. Guy H. Harris for the Apian Award of AIME. . . .In my
view he would be an outstanding selection for this award.. ..Guy is an old-line organic
chemist with a memory bank of organic chemistry, synthesis procedures and flotation
reagents that would put most people to shame.... His greatest success was the
development of Z-200 sulfide flotation collection which proved to be outstandingly
successful on a world-wide basis."
Dr. Peter Avotins, recently retired as Manager of the Chemical Research Division,
American Cyanamid Company (Cytec Industries), states strongly in his support Dr.
Harris:
"There is no question that Dr. Harris has made significant contributions in the invention
and development of flotation reagents. Perhaps I should put it stronger. He is a giant in
our field and we owe him a great deal for the development of thionocarbamate
chemistry for flotation collectors... I admire Guy Harris as a man of great integrity and
professionalism. "
Dr. D. R. Nagaraj, Associate Research Fellow, Cytec Industries, and an outstanding
contributor to new flotation reagent development, enthusiastically endorses Dr. Harris:
"You have given me a very delightful and easy task of writing a letter of support in favor
of Dr. Guy Harris for the distinquished Frank Apian Award Easy task, because,
having myself been involved in flotation research and development for over 25 years, I
have an intimate knowldege of Dr. Harris' monumental contributions in this area and
am qualified to evaluate it. Undoubtedly, Dr. Harris has been the preeminent researcher
and inventor in the world [of flotation reagents] for almost half a century."
Dr. Brij Moudgil, Professor of Materials Science and Engineering and Director of
Engineering Research Center for Particle Science and Technology at the University of
Florida, writes:
"Guy Harris1 approach for reagent design although based on chemistry fundamentals,
has always been rooted in economic reality. This ha's been the cornerstone of his reagent
design strategy when he was conducting research at Dow, or teaching students.... His
dedicated commitment to sharing his knowledge with the younger generation of
chemists andmineral processing engineers is exceptional...! enthusiastically support his
nomination for the prestigious Frank F. Apian Award of AIME."
In his support of Dr. Harris' nomination for the Apian Award, Dr. Roe-Hoan Yoon,
Nicholas T. Camicia Professor at VPI, who has had many years of experience in
investigating collector interactions with sulfide minerals, writes:
"It was certainly revolutionary thinking, at the time of his invention of Z-200, to use a
neutral but highly reactive collector for sulfide mineral flotation."
Dr. S. Chander, Professor of Mineral Processing at Perm State, an expert in sulfide
mineral surface chemistry and flotation comments:
-4-
113
"His invention of Z-200 is undoubtedly the most significant contribution to industrial
progress in sulfide mineral flotation. . . .1 have indeed met him in several technical
meetings and can describe him to be an example of a wonderful gentlemen. It is
amazing that his love of science has continued long after his retirement from Dow in
1982.... Recognition of Dr. Harris is overdue and it would be timely to bestow the Prank
F. Apian Award on him. I support his nomination with great enthusiasm and highest
respect for him."
Professor Fiona Doyle of the University of California at Berkeley, who has had
extensive contact with Dr. Harris in recent years, enthusiastically writes:
"Guy is a gifted organic chemist, with the highest standards of intellectual rigor,
experimental skill, and scrupulous ethics. He is also a gifted mineral engineer, and
extremely practical in his approach to problems. Although he knows how to synthesize
almost anything, he never gets carried away attempting to make exotic reagents that
could never be economic, unstable or unsafe. He conveys this practical perspective
to students.. . .His proactive approach to reagent chemistry is unusual for anyone, and
quite remarkable for someone of his age.... He is an invaluable resource for discussing
ideas."
Dr. Patrick M. Af enya, Associate Professor in Mineral Process Engineering at the
Papua New Guinea University of Technology, writes that he was a student of Dr. Harris
in Ghana and that Harris' inspiration led to two students going overseas for Ph.D.
studies. Dr. Afenya went to the Royal School of Mines, Imperial College, London.
Afenya has maintained contact with Dr. Harris over the years and writes warmly of his
continued interaction with Guy Harris and his work.
Dr. Guy Harris has been a person of great achievement through his invention
and development of flotation reagents. His development of Z-200 certainly ranks next
to that of Keller's discovery of xanthates in 1923. In a career that now spans over 60
years, he continues to work actively in mineral reagent chemistry and in instilling
graduate students with his approach to developing new reagents and in inspiring them
to seek success in their endeavors. It is fitting that Guy Harris receive recognition that
he so richly deserves. Thus, in the highest terms, I recommend that he be awarded the
2003 Frank F. Apian Award.
Sincerely,
Douglas W. Fuerstenau
Professor in the Graduate School
-5-
114
115
2,
s
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i
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o
m
s
5
3D
5
5
a
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Hill
C
s
1
2
a
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1
116
Table 20.— Flotation mill production and consumption in 1985
Plant*
Ore treated —
Energy used (kilowatt-
houn)
Water used'
(gallons)
Rod consumption
(pounds)
Ball consumption
(pounds)
- ' ' '
Steel liner
consump
tion2
pounds per
ton)
0.092
W
.161
.200
.dss
.129
.054
~W
.22!
"w
w
'• .•.
Flotation
CODC8D*
tratee
produced'
(thousand
short tons)
W
W
w
19,606
W
2,771
W
3,070
W
1,899
2,879
:w
••6
19,428
740
238
W
.67
27,081
1,668
W
W
W
W
Trp.
Num
ber
Capacity
(thousand
short
tons)
(thousand
short tons)
Total
(millions)
Per ton
Total
(millions;
Per ton
Total
(thousands)
Per ton*
Total
(thousands)
Perton* (
"w
W
1.808
W
1.063
W
.257
1.104
W
2^02
918
.611
.923
W '
1.786
.491
.010
W
W
W
.182
Anthracite coal
Barite
2
2
1
76
1
8
3
7
1
10
8
1
3
4
9
4
1
22
6
1
1
1
1
4
179
W
w
W
36,114
W
56,135
W
165,966
W
2,920
4,467
W
180
39,989
4,624
870
W
36,923
160,087
16,850
W
w
w
w
5,666
540.363
W
W
W
27,666
W
68,815
W
125,766
W
2,084
2,774
W
180
24,206
3,680
194
W
24,054
120,687
11,100
W
W
w
w
3,810
422,662
W
W
w
899
W
1,051
W
1,664
W
83
NA
W
Mg
NA
W
256
1.849
121
"w
W
w
84
W
W
W
6.5
W
15.8
W
13.2
W
44.6
NA
W
66
40.1
17.7
NA
W
16.0
11.8
10.9
"w
W
w
18.4
W
W
w
88,886
W
47,687
W
49,465
W
10,866
6,693
W
88
210,370
1,860
224
W
7,066
565,852
793
W
W
W
W
1,233
W
W
W
326
W
693
W
393
W
4,429
1,464
W
560
8,965
620
555
W
294
3,164
71
W
W
W
W
581
7,402
W
11,206
W
2,709
341
7,179
258
66
304
4
"w
W
212
0.385
W
.556
W
1.159
.324
.669
.090
.331
.008
.001
~w
w
.214
"w
W
90,016
W
188,718
W
160
265
W
162
9,853
1,792
91
W
27,701
540
4
W
W
W
645
Bastnaeaite
Bituminous coal
Borate
Copper _ _
Copper-lead-zinc
Copper-molybdenum
Copper-iinc-iron
Feldspar-mica-quartz
Glass sand
Gold
Gold-silver.
Iron
Lead-line
Limestone-magnetite
Phosphate __
Potash
Silver
Talc
Tungsten _
Vermiculite
Zinc..
Total. ._
XX
269,154
XX
XX
_ ,, .HU.UIU W«TUIU U40l.ll
includes new or makeup and reclaimed water.
Weighted average only for company reporting this data.
'Excludes concentrates produced by other physical separation methods.
XX Not applicable.
Table 21. — Consumption of reagents at flotation plants in 1985, by oretype
(Thousand pounds)
Type of ore
Flotation reagenta
Effluent treatment
Collectors
De
pressants
Activators
pH regula
tors
Frothers Flocculants Dispersants
pH regula
tors
Flocculants
Filtering
aids
Suffides:
UH
5
W
25,829
W
694
1,046
W
"w
14,618
W
684
1,871
224.266
W
359,395
W
N
982
9,500
2,901
W
4,747
W
W
1
217
18
1,841
W
118
468
W
648
W
~2
W
49
S25
82
352
W
MM
1,432
262
W
102
74
W
716
"w
246
"w
Copper-lead-tinc -
W
5,847
W
Gold ..
W
Gold-silver
4
Lead-zinc
441
28
Molybdenum _ .
12,861
W
Zinc
167
Total'.
22^83
29,426
17,836
621,457
9,611
1,190
856
5,295
1,804
1,176
Metallic carbonates and oxides:
6,695
33,688
169
76
61,295
6
177
408
26
1,271
76
2,489
841
20,880
569
18,812
5
142
5,281
648
Tungsten _ * —
178
Total1
6,616
33,798
76
61,477
488
1,847
3,280
20,898
18.460
S.2S1
Industrial minerals:
Barite _
W
W
W
660
20
2,114
1,782
599
36
W
W
2,540
3,807
168,876
156
169
22
145
772
W
W
"w
884
"19
487
W
W
W
844
126
2,017
210
8,440
'w
V
20
1,666
f W
W
Bastnaeaite
W
Borate _
W
2,758
Glass sand
8,469
Phosphate
827,065
Potash.
3,874
Talc.
Vermiculite.
W
Total1 .. .
339,601
4,695
686
177.267
779
1.160
8,748
1,187
2311
491
10,684
1,023
1,777
1,823
1,647
Anthracite and bituminous coal
8,918
G«»nd total . j
374,812
67,919
18,647
860,982
14,941
6,486
4,128
87,900
23,863
8,054
W Withheld to avoid disclosing respondent proprietary data; included in "Total" and "Grand total."
'Data may not add to totals shown because of independent rounding.
117
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127
INDEX - Guy Harris
Ackerman, Patrice, 93
American Association for the Advancement of
Science, 78
American Chemical Society, 20
American Cynamid (Cytec), 35, 36, 39, 40, 41, 43,
44, 99, 100
Anaconda, 33, 46, 47
Anderson, Darryl, 60,61
Apian, Frank, 93, 94
Atlantic and Pacific Railroad, 1
Bayer and Bayer , 98
Bekway, Aje [Daniel], 70
Bergstrom, 11, 12, 16
Block, Felix, 14
California Scholastic Federation, 81
Calvin, Melvin, 54, 65
Climax, 52
Colton Cement Plant, 6
Corbet, Bill, 23
Crabbe, Lester, 5
Cunningham, Ed, 9
Department of Energy, 94, 95
Dow Chemical Company, 1,21,23,26, 28, 29, 30,
31, 32, 33, 34, 35-36, 39, 42, 45, 48, 51,
52, 53, 54, 55, 59, 62, 63, 65, 68, 71, 73,
93, 94, 95, 98, 99, 100
Dunbar, Joe, 53
Dupont, 42
Durstine, 11
Eastman, 29
Falconbridge, 35, 99
Father Dennis, 88, 89, 90
Father Hampseh, 86-88
Fischback, Bryant, 48-49, 54-56, 57
Fischer, Dr., 39
Free Speech Movement, 83
Friedberg, Edgar, 12
Fuerstenau, Douglas, 15, 62, 93, 94, 95, 97
General Mills Mining Company, 98
Great Western Electro-Chemical Company 28, 29,
30,31,42,43,61,100
Haber, Fritz, 31,53,63
Hanson, Bud, 77
Harris, Edwin James (father), 5, 79
Harris, Elsie (ne^ Elsie Harris), 10, 74, 76, 78, 80,
84, 85-87, 88, 90-91
Harris, Guy, grandparents, 1
Harris, Guy, parents, 2, 3, 4
Harris, Guy, siblings, 7
Harris, Robert, 73-74,75,81,82-83
Harris, Sara Kathleen, 73-74, 81, 83-84, 88
Harris-Pope, Mary Elizabeth, 68, 73-74, 75, 80,
81-82
Harvey, Fred, 5
Harworth, Keith, 11
Heitz, Robert, 53, 66
Hendrickson, Nellie Mae Kate (mother), 5, 79
Hendrickson, William, 5
Herbert Hoover, 94
Hirshkind, Wilhelm, 31,53,61,65
House, Joe, 98
International Mineral Processing Congress, 94
IUPAC [International Union of Pure and Applied
Chemistry], 66
Jones, Phyllis Derner O.J., 57-58
Kaiser Engineering, 68
Keller, Cornelius, 25, 29, 40-41, 42, 45, 59, 60
Kennecott, 40
Kerley Chemical, 92
Klimpel, Dick, 62, 63, 93
Knoller, 11,13, 14,15,20
Kolezar, Alice Ann Harris (daughter), 21, 73, 76,
81,85
KuKluxKlan, 3
Locken. John, 60, 61, 64
Lydman, Father John, 89
Masons, 78
McCarty, 35,37
McGill, 47
Merck, 54
Mercy College, 16, 19
Minerals Separation of North America, 29, 31, 41
Minerek Corporation, 39, 40
128
Morrison, Harry, 71
Mt. Vernon School, 4
Nellie Ely Special, 2
Norton, Ted, 51
Olson, Bob, 63,64
Padco, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 74
Parker Ice Machine Company, 6
Penetel, George, 67
Pennsylvania State University, 93-94, 97-98
Pfizer and Pfizer, 66
Plant Rubber and Asbestos, 24
Porter, Dr., 10
Roosevelt, Franklin Delano, 28
Royal School of Mines, 94
Scanlon, Father Michael
Scitech, 63
Shell Development, 8, 22, 23, 27
Simonson, Luke, 51
Sisters of Mercy, 16, 19
SME [Society for Mining, Metallurgy and
Exploration], 36, 52, 62, 64, 97, 99
Swain, R.E., 12
Terlinger, Herb, 50
Thomas, Norman, 28
Torto, Frank, 65
Tveter, Elmer, 33, 34, 36, 37, 38, 45, 46, 50, 51,
52,60,61,62,64,94,99, 100
University of California, Berkeley, 28, 32, 97, 98
Van Kampen, 24
Van Leisselberg, 11,14
Villa, Pancho, 60
West African Science Association, 68
Wilkie, Wendell 28
William S. Merrill Company, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26,
27,98
Williams, Carl, 52,64
Zeuch, Clarence, 64, 65
Fredric L. Quivic, Interviewer
Fredric L. Quivik works as a consulting historian of technology living in St. Paul,
Minnesota. Much of his work is as an expert witness in Superfund litigation. While
living in the Bay Area for three years, he also conducted oral histories for the Regional
Oral History Office and was a lecturer in the Interdisciplinary Studies Program of the
College of Engineering at U.C. Berkeley. A graduate of the St. Olaf College (B.A., Art)
and the School of Architecture at the University of Minnesota, (B. Environmental
Design), he has also earned an M.S. in Historic Preservation at Columbia University
and a Ph.D. in History and Sociology of Science at the University of Pennsylvania. He
is currently writing a history of the former Ford Motor Company assembly plant in
Richmond, California, in support of the National Park Service's Rosie the Riveter
World War II Homefront National Historical Park.
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